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What do we know about Ukraine’s counteroffensive?

A Ukrainian soldier on the frontline in Donetsk Oblast on May 28, 2023. Credit: Getty

June 7, 2023 - 7:00am

On Tuesday Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu claimed that his forces had thwarted what he described as the first three days of a Ukrainian counteroffensive. He stated: “The Ukrainian regime launched a long-promised offensive in different sectors of the front […] The enemy did not achieve its goal.”

If this is indeed the Ukrainian counteroffensive, the Russians are saying more about it than their battlefield opponents. While Ukrainian officials have refused to be drawn on the issue — to the extent of Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov even tweeting a link to a Depeche Mode song and noting that “words are very unnecessary” — there are signs on the front line that the long-awaited assault is finally here. 

On Sunday, the Russian Defence Ministry claimed that it had thwarted two large-scale assaults on five axes in the south of Donetsk province, in eastern Ukraine, which had reportedly aimed at breaking through the front line in an area Ukraine believed to be vulnerable. The following day, the Commander of Ukraine’s ground forces Oleksandr Syrskyi said that his troops were “moving forward” near Bakhmut, while the country’s Deputy Defence Minister Hanna Maliar commented that Ukraine’s military units “advanced in several directions during the fighting”. 

Combat has been taking place in Bakhmut, described by Maliar as the “epicentre of hostilities” and a location where Ukraine seems to be enjoying a measure of success. While Wagner mercenary forces claimed control of the city in May after a prolonged and bloody battle, on Monday the group’s chief Yevgeny Prigozhin castigated Russian troops for “running away”, and said that part of the nearby settlement of Berkivka had already fallen to Ukraine. For his part, Denis Pushilin, the Moscow-backed governor of the Donetsk region, has admitted that the situation in Bakhmut is “very difficult”. 

Beyond Bakhmut, Ukraine has launched probing attacks seeking to find areas of Russian weakness in the frontline and has already made use of drone attacks in a bid to destroy enemy tanks and positions. 

Despite what appear to be early successes, it is unlikely that Ukraine will be able to push back enemy forces in one fell swoop, given the amount of territory under Russian occupation. Ukrainian officials are now privately discussing a rolling “spring-summer” campaign which may go into September and even beyond. 

Russia has also used the long winter to prepare — the UK Ministry of Defence noted as far back as November that Russia was constructing elaborate defensive structures to protect Mariupol, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, including concrete blocks known as “dragon’s teeth” and designed to slow advancing vehicles. The Ukrainians will also have to contend with the mines left across the front line. 

On Monday night, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy used his address to the public to reassure citizens that “Russia will lose this war” and that Ukraine is “preparing […] new steps to further limit Russia’s military potential”. He added that there is “more news to come soon”. Despite the great difficulties which lie ahead, it would appear that Ukraine is finally launching its counteroffensive.

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Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago

What we do know is that for the West, that there is no plan to stop anything until Ukraine wins. This has been said over and over again by multiple entities. They have argued that Russia is weak and collapsing this whole time, and that Ukraine just needs more time and more weapons to bring the victory about, kicking Russian troops off of every inch of Ukrainian soil.
People who dislike war, and death, and destruction of all people have been hoping that if Ukraine can push them back enough, it can negotiate peace on better terms. We have been told that by some entities.
Which is it? All the way, or some push back and peace talks? Who in the West will support those peace talks?

Peter B
PB
Peter B
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

We don’t know that at all. Western leaders have not said that all original Ukrainian territory must be a) reoccuppied and b) reinstated into Ukraine. Where are your sources for your statement ? Who said it ? And when ?
Certainly the Ukraine government’s public position is that they intend to reconquer and retain all their original territory. There is no certainty that they can or will do so, nor that the West will support that.
I don’t understand just why you expect any negotiations to be done in public and have a ringside seat/inside track on what’s going on. Negotiations are never done in public.
There’s sufficient uncertainty pretty much across the board right now that there’s little point speculating on any of this.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

I think you might wish to pay attention to the utterings of members of the current US administration. Those are among the sources I would guess.

Peter B
PB
Peter B
10 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I asked for actual examples. Please do provide some. Assuming you have any.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

“15,000 casualties–tops!”

Peter B
PB
Peter B
10 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I asked for actual examples. Please do provide some. Assuming you have any.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

“15,000 casualties–tops!”

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

I think you might wish to pay attention to the utterings of members of the current US administration. Those are among the sources I would guess.

D Walsh
DW
D Walsh
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

The Russians are winning, thats why the Ukrainians are blowing up dams

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Who blew up the dam? News research on it…
https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1666203439146172419?s=20

Jeff Watkins
JW
Jeff Watkins
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Thanks. Good analysis from Tucker Carlson. As you rightly point out above- if the West don’t want a political solution that only leaves one way out – a military solution.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

Indeed.
If the election was stolen, the dam must have been destroyed by Ukrainian divers.
Makes perfect sense…

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

Indeed.
If the election was stolen, the dam must have been destroyed by Ukrainian divers.
Makes perfect sense…

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You do know that the astrology page has a better track record than Tuck?

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
Jeff Watkins
JW
Jeff Watkins
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Thanks. Good analysis from Tucker Carlson. As you rightly point out above- if the West don’t want a political solution that only leaves one way out – a military solution.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You do know that the astrology page has a better track record than Tuck?

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Exactly right.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Indeed.
Ah, yes, the Rudolf Hess defence of Hitler:
“Hitler’s victims hypnotized him to kill them.”
So, blowing up dams to flood areas they hope to control in a few months–to include Crimea–is an act of desperation?
And just how did they blow up a dam totally under the control of Russia, when their HIMARs had to make dozens of strikes on a far more fragile bridge downstream?
No need to answer of course.
You already knew all that.

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Who blew up the dam? News research on it…
https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1666203439146172419?s=20

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Exactly right.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Indeed.
Ah, yes, the Rudolf Hess defence of Hitler:
“Hitler’s victims hypnotized him to kill them.”
So, blowing up dams to flood areas they hope to control in a few months–to include Crimea–is an act of desperation?
And just how did they blow up a dam totally under the control of Russia, when their HIMARs had to make dozens of strikes on a far more fragile bridge downstream?
No need to answer of course.
You already knew all that.

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
Jeff Watkins
JW
Jeff Watkins
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Fully agree. The West doesn’t want peace. They have renegated on several peace treatise. They are prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian.
Examples include.
The Minsk agreement
According to former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the Minsk agreement served to buy time to rearm Ukraine. “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time,” Merkel told the weekly Die Zeit.
The Turkish initiative.
”“Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.” blocked by Boris Johnson.
My worry is that if we go down this route ie no negotiations till the Russians are kicked out of Ukraine – This will only end with far more war and destruction and the big losers will be the Ukrainian people.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

Absolutely correct.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

Try telling that to the Ukrainians in Kyiv, after suffering 500 missile attacks in May.
Russia’s lines are about to crack.
We are the only ones who can prevent them from killing surrounded/surrendered Russian soldiers on a mass scale.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

Absolutely correct.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

Try telling that to the Ukrainians in Kyiv, after suffering 500 missile attacks in May.
Russia’s lines are about to crack.
We are the only ones who can prevent them from killing surrounded/surrendered Russian soldiers on a mass scale.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Can’t have peace talks until Russia is beaten.
All of Ukraine knows that if Putin isn’t humiliated completely, the war will jsut start again in 5 or 10 years.
And how about that Vucic?
A real “Pan-Slav!”
Slava!

Peter B
PB
Peter B
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

We don’t know that at all. Western leaders have not said that all original Ukrainian territory must be a) reoccuppied and b) reinstated into Ukraine. Where are your sources for your statement ? Who said it ? And when ?
Certainly the Ukraine government’s public position is that they intend to reconquer and retain all their original territory. There is no certainty that they can or will do so, nor that the West will support that.
I don’t understand just why you expect any negotiations to be done in public and have a ringside seat/inside track on what’s going on. Negotiations are never done in public.
There’s sufficient uncertainty pretty much across the board right now that there’s little point speculating on any of this.

D Walsh
DW
D Walsh
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

The Russians are winning, thats why the Ukrainians are blowing up dams

Jeff Watkins
JW
Jeff Watkins
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Fully agree. The West doesn’t want peace. They have renegated on several peace treatise. They are prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian.
Examples include.
The Minsk agreement
According to former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the Minsk agreement served to buy time to rearm Ukraine. “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time,” Merkel told the weekly Die Zeit.
The Turkish initiative.
”“Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.” blocked by Boris Johnson.
My worry is that if we go down this route ie no negotiations till the Russians are kicked out of Ukraine – This will only end with far more war and destruction and the big losers will be the Ukrainian people.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Can’t have peace talks until Russia is beaten.
All of Ukraine knows that if Putin isn’t humiliated completely, the war will jsut start again in 5 or 10 years.
And how about that Vucic?
A real “Pan-Slav!”
Slava!

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago

What we do know is that for the West, that there is no plan to stop anything until Ukraine wins. This has been said over and over again by multiple entities. They have argued that Russia is weak and collapsing this whole time, and that Ukraine just needs more time and more weapons to bring the victory about, kicking Russian troops off of every inch of Ukrainian soil.
People who dislike war, and death, and destruction of all people have been hoping that if Ukraine can push them back enough, it can negotiate peace on better terms. We have been told that by some entities.
Which is it? All the way, or some push back and peace talks? Who in the West will support those peace talks?

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago

Does anyone still believe that Putin blew up the Nord Stream pipeline, when both Biden and Victoria Nuland threatened to take it out ?
There was no advantage to Russia in attacking this dam.
It will cause disruption to water supplies in Crimea and now Russian occupied positions on the left bank of the Dnieper river are flooded out.
Why would Russia destroy its own defenses that they have just built up ?
This also has a detrimental effect on the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station that Russia is managing.
What possible reason would Russia have for damaging this dam ?
The world is weary of supporting Ukraine and Ukraine needed a disaster on this scale to gain sympathy.
Another False Flag operation by the corrupt Zelenskyy administration.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

“There was no advantage to Russia in attacking this dam.”
Of course there was: It was a desperate attempt by Russia to hold back the counter-offensive that is being launched by The Ukrainians to reclaim their country from the thugs that have invaded it.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

No, Russian defences are now under water.
Do you believe Russia destroyed Nord Steam ?

D Walsh
DW
D Walsh
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

So far the Russians have been dealing with the “spring offensive” heavy losses for the Ukrainians over the last few days

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

The main blow hasn’t been struck.
These are shaping operations, to send Russian reserves to the wrong places.
And like every time before, they will take the bait.
Look how much they’ve lost already.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

The main blow hasn’t been struck.
These are shaping operations, to send Russian reserves to the wrong places.
And like every time before, they will take the bait.
Look how much they’ve lost already.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

No, Russian defences are now under water.
Do you believe Russia destroyed Nord Steam ?

D Walsh
DW
D Walsh
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

So far the Russians have been dealing with the “spring offensive” heavy losses for the Ukrainians over the last few days

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

“There was no advantage to Russia in attacking this dam.”
Of course there was: It was a desperate attempt by Russia to hold back the counter-offensive that is being launched by The Ukrainians to reclaim their country from the thugs that have invaded it.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago

Does anyone still believe that Putin blew up the Nord Stream pipeline, when both Biden and Victoria Nuland threatened to take it out ?
There was no advantage to Russia in attacking this dam.
It will cause disruption to water supplies in Crimea and now Russian occupied positions on the left bank of the Dnieper river are flooded out.
Why would Russia destroy its own defenses that they have just built up ?
This also has a detrimental effect on the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station that Russia is managing.
What possible reason would Russia have for damaging this dam ?
The world is weary of supporting Ukraine and Ukraine needed a disaster on this scale to gain sympathy.
Another False Flag operation by the corrupt Zelenskyy administration.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Steve Farrell
BR
Steve Farrell
10 months ago

Who you believe is responsible seems to depend on whose land you believe is currently flooded, as both sides’ reasoning runs along the lines of “why would they do this to their own territory?”

Ukraine supporters make the reasonable point that this was & is Ukraine, so why would they destroy it, ruin thousands of Ukrainians’ lives/property & apparently risk disaster at the big nuclear plant. They also point out that it creates a natural barrier that’ll be very hard to launch a counteroffensive across.

Russian supporters believe this has always been Russia & the Russians are there to stay, so why destroy it? The reservoir also apparently supplies Crimea. They reckon this is an act of sabotage by a desperate, failing regime in Kiev.

I don’t claim to be impartial – I think it was the Russians. But the pretence on both sides that there’s no conceivable reason their boys could have done this is pretty tiresome. It’s Nordstream all over again.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

No, this makes it easier for Ukraine to launch a counter offensive, not harder. Ukraine has been attacking the dam with Himars for some time before this.This was a FF operation on Ukraine’spart to gain sympathy and support.
A repeat of Nord Stream.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

HIMARs cannot destroy a dam.
They couldn’t actually destroy the much more fragile bridge over the Dnipro with HIMARs. They just left holes in the thin surface.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

I know that but they have used Himars against the dam.
Target practice for when it becomes expedient to attack the damn.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

“Dam.”
It took several hundred Kgs of explosives to destroy a dam fully under Putin’s control. And they had to be carefully placed to achieve the damage that they did.
That can only have been done by Russia.
QED.

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

“Dam.”
It took several hundred Kgs of explosives to destroy a dam fully under Putin’s control. And they had to be carefully placed to achieve the damage that they did.
That can only have been done by Russia.
QED.

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

I know that but they have used Himars against the dam.
Target practice for when it becomes expedient to attack the damn.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

HIMARs cannot destroy a dam.
They couldn’t actually destroy the much more fragile bridge over the Dnipro with HIMARs. They just left holes in the thin surface.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

No, this makes it easier for Ukraine to launch a counter offensive, not harder. Ukraine has been attacking the dam with Himars for some time before this.This was a FF operation on Ukraine’spart to gain sympathy and support.
A repeat of Nord Stream.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Steve Farrell
BR
Steve Farrell
10 months ago

Who you believe is responsible seems to depend on whose land you believe is currently flooded, as both sides’ reasoning runs along the lines of “why would they do this to their own territory?”

Ukraine supporters make the reasonable point that this was & is Ukraine, so why would they destroy it, ruin thousands of Ukrainians’ lives/property & apparently risk disaster at the big nuclear plant. They also point out that it creates a natural barrier that’ll be very hard to launch a counteroffensive across.

Russian supporters believe this has always been Russia & the Russians are there to stay, so why destroy it? The reservoir also apparently supplies Crimea. They reckon this is an act of sabotage by a desperate, failing regime in Kiev.

I don’t claim to be impartial – I think it was the Russians. But the pretence on both sides that there’s no conceivable reason their boys could have done this is pretty tiresome. It’s Nordstream all over again.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

Spare some pity for the Russian trolls in St P. They see retribution staring them in the face.
Once ordinary Russians find out how great their losses are, they will hunt the trolls down like rabbits.
You’ll see troll heads smashed by sledgehammers in front of the Hermitage, just as the Russian sailors murdered their officers in 1917.
Without Putin there is no Russia.
But Russian retribution is eternal.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

You are a pyscopath.
How you get away with posting your hateful trash, I really don’t know.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

You are a pyscopath.
How you get away with posting your hateful trash, I really don’t know.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

Spare some pity for the Russian trolls in St P. They see retribution staring them in the face.
Once ordinary Russians find out how great their losses are, they will hunt the trolls down like rabbits.
You’ll see troll heads smashed by sledgehammers in front of the Hermitage, just as the Russian sailors murdered their officers in 1917.
Without Putin there is no Russia.
But Russian retribution is eternal.

Paul Hendricks
PH
Paul Hendricks
10 months ago

The nuclear plant strikes me as a microcosm of this mysterious war.

It’s under Russian control, but apparently has some Ukrainian staff. (One wonders who they are.) Each side seems to be playing a dangerous game with it: the Russians apparently mining it and using it as a cover for attacks, meanwhile the Ukrainians shelling it. Apparently five of its six reactors have been turned off. But it still needs cooling to prevent an explosion.

The reservoir provided cooling water for the plant and, less reported, drinking water to Crimea. Europeans say it’s a Russian attack. The US won’t say how the collapse happened–the dam has been damaged before–but will go so far as to say definitively that it’s a “price of war.” A senior Ukrainian official, playing to his audience, said, (darkly) amusingly to me, that the subsequent flooding of this “ecological attack” endangered “thousands of animals” and the “ecosystem”.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Hendricks

Indeed.
Ukrainians flood areas they hope to gain in a few weeks or months.
Rudolf Hess:
“Hitler’s victims hypnotized him to kill them.”

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

Best take on the Russian destruction of Nova Kakhovka so far:
“Something like 150+ metres of the Spillway, about half of it, is ‘broken’. It’s gone.
“But, and foremost, almost the entire Turbine Building is gone. The walls and roofs of the Turbine Building can be seen as ‘crashed INTO the fundament’. As a result, the water – indeed: the most massive breach of the dam – is spilling OVER the fundament.
“This means that hundreds of kilogram of explosives must have been used to destroy the fundament with turbines, so that the walls and the roof of the Turbine Building crashed INTO the fundament.”
https://xxtomcooperxx.substack.com/p/ukraine-war-8-june-2023-the-russian?fbclid=IwAR1NF8f22ybiEvwI5lz0EYlCfb8rIQ0sIfQYQpSgVSxe7OT0QlVb2R4FmdQ

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Nice to see they can’t think of any coherent response.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Nice to see they can’t think of any coherent response.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

Best take on the Russian destruction of Nova Kakhovka so far:
“Something like 150+ metres of the Spillway, about half of it, is ‘broken’. It’s gone.
“But, and foremost, almost the entire Turbine Building is gone. The walls and roofs of the Turbine Building can be seen as ‘crashed INTO the fundament’. As a result, the water – indeed: the most massive breach of the dam – is spilling OVER the fundament.
“This means that hundreds of kilogram of explosives must have been used to destroy the fundament with turbines, so that the walls and the roof of the Turbine Building crashed INTO the fundament.”
https://xxtomcooperxx.substack.com/p/ukraine-war-8-june-2023-the-russian?fbclid=IwAR1NF8f22ybiEvwI5lz0EYlCfb8rIQ0sIfQYQpSgVSxe7OT0QlVb2R4FmdQ

Last edited 10 months ago by martin logan
polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago

Are the consequences of blowing up a dam fully predictable? Is the nuclear power station that sits upstream of the dam at risk? It sounds to me like a desperate measure by an army that has no confidence in its ability to withstand an attack using conventional military means.
We have had Ivan The Terrible and Peter The Great. Now we get Vlad The Bunny Boiler. Negotiating an end to this war is surely off the cards until there is a sane man in The Kremlin. I think we should fear for the future.

Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
Peter B
PB
Peter B
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Vlad : “the cretin in the Kremlin”.

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The problem with your position that Putin is simply insane and can’t be negotiated with is that no one believes it. At least none of the Western nations believe it. Otherwise, we would be bringing all of our own nations into a wartime economy.
Because a madman bent on Western conquest who has nuclear weapons, and a massive and growing by the day military, vast resources, who has moved to a 24/7 weapons and munitions manufacturing themselves is a real threat requiring real action. Not sending a few tanks and some artillery to a small Ukrainian army.
No one in the West has mobilized their nations. No one is making their own military capable of withstanding the madman bent on their conquest. Only 7 of the NATO members have even increased their military spending to the agreed 2%. 2% isn’t even a serious figure if the issue is Sauron is at the gates with 140 million orcs.
So, I would argue that since none of the powers of the West actually agree you’re your premise with their own actions, your claim is simply not credible. What is questionable therefore is your own ability to either discern or proclaim the truth.
My position is that people who speak like you do, with confidence, are part of the problem. The other part is people naive enough to listen to people who say things like you do.
What we should do in the West is dispense with the foolish rhetoric of the ones who are truly speaking like madmen, and pursue peace. Which will be difficult, because if we look at what we admitted we did with the Minsk agreement, who would trust us? Can we even trust ourselves? 

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

I am all for negotiating – When there is someone to negotiate with – Blowing up a dam is not the act of a sane man looking for a negotiated settlement. My initial response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine was not to get involved. But there is no rolling back the clock and we are where we are.
Get off your moral high horse. It has no legs.

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Russia blowing up a dam that hurts them seems about as credible as them blowing up the Nord Stream pipeline.
The Washington Post already reported in December that Ukraine had plans to blow that up, and publicly stated as much. In fact, Ukraine spoke of blowing it up twice last year. It also makes sense militarily for Ukraine, because it only hurts Russian occupied territory, and defensive fortifications, and it will allow Ukraine to pull troops out of that area to mass for this (IMO less than stellar) offensive.
https://www.theautomaticearth.com/2023/06/kievs-long-term-plans-to-blow-up-the-kakhovka-dam/
Is it that shocking to think that Ukraine is as corrupt and dishonest as the reporting on them had been for many years all the way up until 2020? I am not saying to trust Russia, but more that this whole thing is a quagmire. There is quite a bit of evidence that Ukraine did do this. Which, we need to call for both sides to stop fighting now.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
R Cope
RC
R Cope
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Precisely zero proof that Ukraine decided to blow up its own dam and flood out thousands of its own residents. Convincing proof of Russian involvement may come in due course but until then your suggestion that it’s a Ukrainian war crime is laughable, particularly for someone who suggests that other posters can’t discern truth for themselves.

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  R Cope

There is absolute evidence they did it, the chief of which is well documented Western media reports that they said they were going to…
I fail to see how it is laughable to just take them at their word that they did what they previously said they were going to do.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  R Cope

See my post above.
This was a FF operation.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

No it wasn’t. It was an act of terrorism perpetrated by the Russian army at Putin’s behest.
Russia is beyond the pale.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Your position is ridiculous.
Why would Russia flood it’s own military positions ?
You have the blinkers on and you don’t want to know the truth.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Stoat, if they had warned their troops, it would be prima facie evidence that they had been planning it all along.
They had to be sacrificed–just like the guys who died at Hostomel, outside Kyiv and outside Kharkiv.
That’s how Russia has always treated its own soldiers: govno.
Turns out their evacuation was orderly–suggesting they had plans for what to do.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Again, like always, can’t think of any reply.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Again, like always, can’t think of any reply.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Stoat, if they had warned their troops, it would be prima facie evidence that they had been planning it all along.
They had to be sacrificed–just like the guys who died at Hostomel, outside Kyiv and outside Kharkiv.
That’s how Russia has always treated its own soldiers: govno.
Turns out their evacuation was orderly–suggesting they had plans for what to do.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Your position is ridiculous.
Why would Russia flood it’s own military positions ?
You have the blinkers on and you don’t want to know the truth.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

If it was “false flag,” you’re saying the Russians did it.
They had total control over the dam.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

No it wasn’t. It was an act of terrorism perpetrated by the Russian army at Putin’s behest.
Russia is beyond the pale.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

If it was “false flag,” you’re saying the Russians did it.
They had total control over the dam.

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  R Cope

There is absolute evidence they did it, the chief of which is well documented Western media reports that they said they were going to…
I fail to see how it is laughable to just take them at their word that they did what they previously said they were going to do.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  R Cope

See my post above.
This was a FF operation.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You are not worth engaging with.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Maybe you could learn a thing or two from SW.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Maybe you could learn a thing or two from SW.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

The point is: Ukraine COULDN’T have blown up the dam with any munition they have.
Only hundreds of pounds of explosives, put in the right place deep in the dam could do the damage we see.
Something called “physics.”

R Cope
RC
R Cope
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Precisely zero proof that Ukraine decided to blow up its own dam and flood out thousands of its own residents. Convincing proof of Russian involvement may come in due course but until then your suggestion that it’s a Ukrainian war crime is laughable, particularly for someone who suggests that other posters can’t discern truth for themselves.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You are not worth engaging with.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

The point is: Ukraine COULDN’T have blown up the dam with any munition they have.
Only hundreds of pounds of explosives, put in the right place deep in the dam could do the damage we see.
Something called “physics.”

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Putin did not blow up this dam.
See my comment above.
Think about it.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

I have thought about it – Russian trolls are trying to spin this act of terrorism as friendly fire. It isn’t. It is classic Russian behaviour.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Really?
Why would Russian trolls bother with Unherd ?
Who do they hope to influence ?

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

The point of trolling is to spread doubt far and wide.
Do you honestly think that The Ukrainians would blow up that dam and flood their own country?
Do you really think that likely?
Perhaps you suspect that the entire invasion is actually a false flag operation conducted by Ukrainians to discredit Russia. Those fiendish Ukrainians!

Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

They did blow up the dam and that was because all the sheep will believe that Russia did it.
Those that support this proxy war don’t care how many Ukrainians have to die.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Indeed.
“Hitler’s victims hypnotized him to kill them.”

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Indeed.
“Hitler’s victims hypnotized him to kill them.”

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

They did blow up the dam and that was because all the sheep will believe that Russia did it.
Those that support this proxy war don’t care how many Ukrainians have to die.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

The point of trolling is to spread doubt far and wide.
Do you honestly think that The Ukrainians would blow up that dam and flood their own country?
Do you really think that likely?
Perhaps you suspect that the entire invasion is actually a false flag operation conducted by Ukrainians to discredit Russia. Those fiendish Ukrainians!

Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Really?
Why would Russian trolls bother with Unherd ?
Who do they hope to influence ?

stephen archer
SA
stephen archer
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Of course he didn’t, he was hiding in his bunker, but according to Russian bloggers in the know it was named troops guarding the power station who set off the charges 4 days too early which is why the Ruskies on the left bank got a wet surprise and had to pull out.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

I have thought about it – Russian trolls are trying to spin this act of terrorism as friendly fire. It isn’t. It is classic Russian behaviour.

stephen archer
SA
stephen archer
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Of course he didn’t, he was hiding in his bunker, but according to Russian bloggers in the know it was named troops guarding the power station who set off the charges 4 days too early which is why the Ruskies on the left bank got a wet surprise and had to pull out.

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Russia blowing up a dam that hurts them seems about as credible as them blowing up the Nord Stream pipeline.
The Washington Post already reported in December that Ukraine had plans to blow that up, and publicly stated as much. In fact, Ukraine spoke of blowing it up twice last year. It also makes sense militarily for Ukraine, because it only hurts Russian occupied territory, and defensive fortifications, and it will allow Ukraine to pull troops out of that area to mass for this (IMO less than stellar) offensive.
https://www.theautomaticearth.com/2023/06/kievs-long-term-plans-to-blow-up-the-kakhovka-dam/
Is it that shocking to think that Ukraine is as corrupt and dishonest as the reporting on them had been for many years all the way up until 2020? I am not saying to trust Russia, but more that this whole thing is a quagmire. There is quite a bit of evidence that Ukraine did do this. Which, we need to call for both sides to stop fighting now.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Putin did not blow up this dam.
See my comment above.
Think about it.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Peter B
PB
Peter B
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

“The problem with your position that Putin is simply insane and can’t be negotiated with is that no one believes it.”
You’ve already contradicted yourself on line one (since poli appartently believes it – you said so yourself) !!!
Everything after is more of the same nonsense.
Russia doesn’t have 140 million fighting age men. They’re struggling to even get a few hundred thousand to the front line. Millions have already voted with their feet and left the country. They don’t have the vast military resources or capacity to produce new weapons you make out – all the advanced stuff needs silicon chips from the West which is embargoed.
The West doesn’t need to mobilise here. We have enough scale and weapons between us already to do what’s needed to support Ukraine. Very little change is needed to outproduce and outclass Russian equipment.
My position is very clear – people like you are absolutely not part of any solution here.

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

Nothing of what you just said is true at all, other than they don’t have 140 million fighting age men. This is the problem. People like you who get this information from, who knows where, but it’s all false information.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You are a Russion troll and you are trolling.

Go away “Steve”

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

…and here we have it… If you overcome these guys in a debate with reason, evidence and facts…well, you must be a Russian troll… This is where we are at people… Can we survive this?

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You are not debating – you are trolling – What a sad way to earn a living – go away.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You are not debating – you are trolling – What a sad way to earn a living – go away.

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

…and here we have it… If you overcome these guys in a debate with reason, evidence and facts…well, you must be a Russian troll… This is where we are at people… Can we survive this?

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You are a Russion troll and you are trolling.

Go away “Steve”

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter B

Nothing of what you just said is true at all, other than they don’t have 140 million fighting age men. This is the problem. People like you who get this information from, who knows where, but it’s all false information.

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

I am all for negotiating – When there is someone to negotiate with – Blowing up a dam is not the act of a sane man looking for a negotiated settlement. My initial response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine was not to get involved. But there is no rolling back the clock and we are where we are.
Get off your moral high horse. It has no legs.

Peter B
PB
Peter B
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

“The problem with your position that Putin is simply insane and can’t be negotiated with is that no one believes it.”
You’ve already contradicted yourself on line one (since poli appartently believes it – you said so yourself) !!!
Everything after is more of the same nonsense.
Russia doesn’t have 140 million fighting age men. They’re struggling to even get a few hundred thousand to the front line. Millions have already voted with their feet and left the country. They don’t have the vast military resources or capacity to produce new weapons you make out – all the advanced stuff needs silicon chips from the West which is embargoed.
The West doesn’t need to mobilise here. We have enough scale and weapons between us already to do what’s needed to support Ukraine. Very little change is needed to outproduce and outclass Russian equipment.
My position is very clear – people like you are absolutely not part of any solution here.

Paul Hendricks
PH
Paul Hendricks
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Reporting previously suggested the nuclear plant, whose long name beginning with a Z I can’t recall at the moment, was at great risk in general, including from electrical failure which would impact the necessary cooling; also from Ukrainian shelling and Russians launching attacks from th vicinity. Curiously now that the reservoir used to provide its cooling water has, presumably, been emptied now that the dam has burst, European authorities are now seemingly less alarmed about the possibility of an explosion due to spent fuel that wasn’t cooled. Apparently there are “alternate water supplies that could last for months”. But not long ago the nuclear plant was a subject of great international concern.

Paul Hendricks
PH
Paul Hendricks
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Oh, and as for the consequences of blowing up a dam, if indeed it was blown up–it was already damaged–according to Al-Jazeera Ukrainians were evacuating the areas downstream well before the dam burst because they knew the water levels were very high.

In fact, some European scientist said that at the moment the dam burst, water levels were at an “all-time high.” So, someone knew what they were doing, if the intent was to cause maximum flooding. Or, it fell apart–European officials are quick to say it was a Russian “attack” but none have said how the attack was carried out. . .

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Hendricks

Explosives on the fundament (where the turbines are) is the only way it could have collapsed the way it did.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Thanks for not daring to reply!

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Thanks for not daring to reply!

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Hendricks

Explosives on the fundament (where the turbines are) is the only way it could have collapsed the way it did.

Peter B
PB
Peter B
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Vlad : “the cretin in the Kremlin”.

Steve White
SW
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The problem with your position that Putin is simply insane and can’t be negotiated with is that no one believes it. At least none of the Western nations believe it. Otherwise, we would be bringing all of our own nations into a wartime economy.
Because a madman bent on Western conquest who has nuclear weapons, and a massive and growing by the day military, vast resources, who has moved to a 24/7 weapons and munitions manufacturing themselves is a real threat requiring real action. Not sending a few tanks and some artillery to a small Ukrainian army.
No one in the West has mobilized their nations. No one is making their own military capable of withstanding the madman bent on their conquest. Only 7 of the NATO members have even increased their military spending to the agreed 2%. 2% isn’t even a serious figure if the issue is Sauron is at the gates with 140 million orcs.
So, I would argue that since none of the powers of the West actually agree you’re your premise with their own actions, your claim is simply not credible. What is questionable therefore is your own ability to either discern or proclaim the truth.
My position is that people who speak like you do, with confidence, are part of the problem. The other part is people naive enough to listen to people who say things like you do.
What we should do in the West is dispense with the foolish rhetoric of the ones who are truly speaking like madmen, and pursue peace. Which will be difficult, because if we look at what we admitted we did with the Minsk agreement, who would trust us? Can we even trust ourselves? 

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Paul Hendricks
PH
Paul Hendricks
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Reporting previously suggested the nuclear plant, whose long name beginning with a Z I can’t recall at the moment, was at great risk in general, including from electrical failure which would impact the necessary cooling; also from Ukrainian shelling and Russians launching attacks from th vicinity. Curiously now that the reservoir used to provide its cooling water has, presumably, been emptied now that the dam has burst, European authorities are now seemingly less alarmed about the possibility of an explosion due to spent fuel that wasn’t cooled. Apparently there are “alternate water supplies that could last for months”. But not long ago the nuclear plant was a subject of great international concern.

Paul Hendricks
PH
Paul Hendricks
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Oh, and as for the consequences of blowing up a dam, if indeed it was blown up–it was already damaged–according to Al-Jazeera Ukrainians were evacuating the areas downstream well before the dam burst because they knew the water levels were very high.

In fact, some European scientist said that at the moment the dam burst, water levels were at an “all-time high.” So, someone knew what they were doing, if the intent was to cause maximum flooding. Or, it fell apart–European officials are quick to say it was a Russian “attack” but none have said how the attack was carried out. . .

polidori redux
PR
polidori redux
10 months ago

Are the consequences of blowing up a dam fully predictable? Is the nuclear power station that sits upstream of the dam at risk? It sounds to me like a desperate measure by an army that has no confidence in its ability to withstand an attack using conventional military means.
We have had Ivan The Terrible and Peter The Great. Now we get Vlad The Bunny Boiler. Negotiating an end to this war is surely off the cards until there is a sane man in The Kremlin. I think we should fear for the future.

Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

Putin isn’t insane.
But he certainly has created an information bubble around himself that protects him from any bad news. Anyone who brings the latter doesn’t get a second chance.
But he still fancies himself to be Otto von Stirlitz, the brilliant (and entirely fictional) Russian spy in Berlin.
So he believes an “information operation” a la von Stirlitz, will magically redeem his position and so revive the Petrine empire. That’s the reason he blew the dam:
1) The flood inflicts significant damage on Ukrainian civilians, something an entire month of missiles strikes on Kyiv failed to do. Like Hitler in 1944, he’s given up and military solutions;
2) The flooding diverts significant Ukrainian resources away from military tasks to life saving;
3) The disaster affects both the Dnipro basin and much more importantly Crimea. Since he will very likely lose it this year, that again makes Ukraine a much poorer nation, and so less of a model for Russians.
4) Most important, this destroys vast areas of fertile fields. They will soon dry up, and wont be usable for years. That drives up the price of grain. The heart of his strategy has always been to make the world dependent on Russian (and Russian-controlled Ukraine).
Just too bad none of it has panned out for him.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Thanks once again for proving my arguments are unassailable.
It is greatly appreciated!

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Thanks once again for proving my arguments are unassailable.
It is greatly appreciated!

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

Putin isn’t insane.
But he certainly has created an information bubble around himself that protects him from any bad news. Anyone who brings the latter doesn’t get a second chance.
But he still fancies himself to be Otto von Stirlitz, the brilliant (and entirely fictional) Russian spy in Berlin.
So he believes an “information operation” a la von Stirlitz, will magically redeem his position and so revive the Petrine empire. That’s the reason he blew the dam:
1) The flood inflicts significant damage on Ukrainian civilians, something an entire month of missiles strikes on Kyiv failed to do. Like Hitler in 1944, he’s given up and military solutions;
2) The flooding diverts significant Ukrainian resources away from military tasks to life saving;
3) The disaster affects both the Dnipro basin and much more importantly Crimea. Since he will very likely lose it this year, that again makes Ukraine a much poorer nation, and so less of a model for Russians.
4) Most important, this destroys vast areas of fertile fields. They will soon dry up, and wont be usable for years. That drives up the price of grain. The heart of his strategy has always been to make the world dependent on Russian (and Russian-controlled Ukraine).
Just too bad none of it has panned out for him.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

Putin is no military man, and finally realizes that all his interventions in military affairs have backfired. He has no idea of how his army got here, and realizes that, after its failed winter offensive, is on the brink of defeat.
Which is why his “dam-busting” is so ridiculous.
It can have no effect on the military situation. Ukraine wasn’t planning any major operation along the Dnipro.
So it’s really just to inflict pain on “Russians” who have refused to be Russians. That anyone would aspire to be Russian, is of course, ridiculous. But for Russians of Putin’s class, that isn’t just unkind–it’s treason. The idea of a traitor makes them lose all reason.
And when this war ends, every Russian will blame every other for the debacle.
It will be far worse than the 5 million dead in the Civil War of 1917-21.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

Putin is no military man, and finally realizes that all his interventions in military affairs have backfired. He has no idea of how his army got here, and realizes that, after its failed winter offensive, is on the brink of defeat.
Which is why his “dam-busting” is so ridiculous.
It can have no effect on the military situation. Ukraine wasn’t planning any major operation along the Dnipro.
So it’s really just to inflict pain on “Russians” who have refused to be Russians. That anyone would aspire to be Russian, is of course, ridiculous. But for Russians of Putin’s class, that isn’t just unkind–it’s treason. The idea of a traitor makes them lose all reason.
And when this war ends, every Russian will blame every other for the debacle.
It will be far worse than the 5 million dead in the Civil War of 1917-21.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

I wouldn’t doubt that many, if not most, of the positive posts for Putin are Russian trolls.
Unherd has a viewership of solidly left and right of centre, the people most likely to be open to Kremlin propaganda.
But it’s a lot more fun to humiliate and outsmart them than to ban them. That goes for every chat group I am in.
Russians are born losers. So let them fulfill their destinies.
It’s going to get a whole lot worse for them in future.

Antonino Ioviero
AI
Antonino Ioviero
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Born losers?

You don’t get to be as big as Russia without winning an awful lot of wars.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

And you don’t lose 5 million in a civil war, another tens of millions in the Gulags, and 28 million in WW2, THEN reduce yourself to half of your former size, and alienate all your former colonies
Unless you are led by idiots.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

And you don’t lose 5 million in a civil war, another tens of millions in the Gulags, and 28 million in WW2, THEN reduce yourself to half of your former size, and alienate all your former colonies
Unless you are led by idiots.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Pathetic.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It must be horrible to be a Russian just now.
Just like a German in 1944.
Retribution is coming…

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It must be horrible to be a Russian just now.
Just like a German in 1944.
Retribution is coming…

Antonino Ioviero
AI
Antonino Ioviero
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Born losers?

You don’t get to be as big as Russia without winning an awful lot of wars.

Stoater D
SD
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Pathetic.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
10 months ago

I wouldn’t doubt that many, if not most, of the positive posts for Putin are Russian trolls.
Unherd has a viewership of solidly left and right of centre, the people most likely to be open to Kremlin propaganda.
But it’s a lot more fun to humiliate and outsmart them than to ban them. That goes for every chat group I am in.
Russians are born losers. So let them fulfill their destinies.
It’s going to get a whole lot worse for them in future.