November 15, 2021 - 12:28pm
Vienna
UPDATE: Don’t miss the full story and video report, now live HERE
I’m in Vienna on day one of the world’s first lockdown for only the unvaccinated.
At first glance it seems like an ordinary, if rather grey, November day — perhaps with slightly fewer people out and about than you might expect. Medical-grade masks are much in evidence, and there are queues outside all the testing centres (a negative test is an accepted alternative to vaccination).
But this is no ordinary day. As of midnight last night, around 30% of the adult population have been legally mandated to stay inside their homes. They are allowed to leave only to buy essential food, to travel to and from essential work and for physical exercise. Leisure of any kind is forbidden. In effect, this means that two million Austrians are currently under partial house arrest.
We’ve been speaking to people on the street to find out what they think, as part of a forthcoming special report for UnHerdTV.
What strikes me most is the class inflection to the whole thing. We started this morning on one of the fancier shopping streets in the old town, full of Rolex and Karl Lagerfeld stores in which well-heeled locals lined up to express their support for the lockdown. There is very little sympathy for a truculent minority that is seen as “stupid” and “having brought it on themselves”.
On the same street, however, if you approach the people wearing fluorescent vests, guarding the stores and making deliveries, you tend to get a different response. They are more reluctant to speak to us, but decidedly less supportive. “It is bullshit,” was one man’s pithy response.
Questions about the practical efficacy of such a measure don’t seem to be of much interest. When I ask people if they know that vaccinated people can also contract and transmit Covid, they tend to brush it aside as a minor detail. Not a single person we have spoken of so far referred to the likely practical outcome of this new policy — it is simply a hardening of the vaccine passport policy that so far has evidently failed to contain the latest wave of infections.
For the Government, the motivation, as always, is mainly to be seen to be doing something; the numerous anti-vaccine and anti-lockdown political parties that have grown up during Covid have made it even more of a political battle.
But for the majority of voters that support it I can’t escape the sense that the motivation is at least partly punitive. They don’t understand people who are not taking the vaccine, they don’t like them, and they are slightly afraid of them — so the simplest thing is to remove them from society altogether.
UnHerdTV’s special report from inside Austria’s lockdown for the unvaccinated will be out later this week.
is the Editor-in-Chief & CEO of UnHerd. He was previously Editor-in-Chief of YouGov, and founder of PoliticsHome.
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SubscribeForcing 30% of your population to sit inside and watch the other 70% live freely is morally disgusting and not a very tenable long-term solution.
This will boil over. How could it not?
Forcing the other 70% to give up their freedoms to go into a full lockdown when they have already done their bit and had the vaccination which is clearly the best way of managing the pandemic is far more likely to upset the apple cart.
Did you miss the part where the vaxxed spread this just as easily as the un-vaxxed?
The key argument in favour of the vaccination is not that it stops you from catching covid, but that it reduces your risk of having to go to hospital if you catch it, thus reducing the risk that healthcare systems become overloaded, thus reducing the risk of lockdowns. I never saw the jabs as a silver bullet – but as the best available alternative for keeping the pandemic under some kind of control while allowing people to go about their lives with the least possible level of restriction. Denmark, for example, has a quite impressive level of vaccination (because of a high level of trust in the authorities possibly?) and still has restrictions in place. But those restrictions would be so much worse and draconian if there weren’t so many vaccinated people. It’s not about perfect solutions, it’s about imperfect solutions that get you as close as possible to your aims, the key one being that people aren’t left dying outside hospitals.
Thanks Katherine, I appreciate your level headed view.
You do know that there is new drug now for after one catches covid. In light of this recent new discovery ( in bbc ) there will be fewer people going to hospitals both vaccinated & unvaccinated. This is where the vaccines may not be needed. It is NOT OK to lockdown anyone as we have seen in the past, they simply do not work. There are people surviving in millions through the most recent autumn infections. The hospital overwhelming is the “go to” rationale for those who don’t want to look for solutions. Your view that vaccine is an imperfect solution is just A view. It’s is not mine .
K.Eyre only said that vaccination reduces hospitalisation numbers. This is surely a good thing, whether or not other treatments are being developed alongside vaccination.
Pls watch the video below. It’s about the concept ‘everybody knows’.
K. Eyre is only repeating what is being reported incessantly. She doesn’t know any better than you or I. It appears she trusts the MSM without reservations. The numbers being reported are not necessarily cause and effect and fully conclusive. The vaccines are being sold as a product that cannot have any questions attached to it. Every success is attributed to vaccines and failure to unvaccinated. Don’t you find that odd? Surely there would be mass graves of the unvaccinated in that case. But it’s the vaccinated who are supplying the infection now. If the government can’t see the logic, it’s because they don’t want to see it. They just want to be seen to be doing SOMETHING. And guess what, they have gone all tribal. They can’t blame China (too far, it doesn’t care), let’s go on a witch hunt for the unvaccinated. We can no longer expect to live in civil harmony because the western countries have regressed from being epicentres of civilisation to tribal culture.
Very well said. It is scary that even a hanful of Unherd readers have been so brainwashed by the MSM and big tech who (surprise surprise) receivre billions in ‘funding’ and ad revenues.
What is the new drug you speak of?
Pls look up in the search button in bbc since the last month or so. I don’t have a name but a pill has been made possibly by Pfizer . An anti viral that reduces hospitalisation and the effects of Covid. It is apparently extremely effective once you get the disease.
https://mark-skidmore.com/2021/11/06/dr-peter-doshis-remarkable-speech-everybody-knows/
This relies on the major dose of question begging that lockdowns are effective in the first place. I’m still to see any reasonable explanation as to why Florida and Texas have not seen a complete collapse of their healthcare systems yet. Sweden makes the news only when its case rates are among the highest in Europe, when they’re at the lower end, everyone ignores it.
As others have pointed out, this is a false dilema: shutdown or vaccines. And while I do not doubt that vaccines have been effective, particularly at lowering admissions in hospitals, I do doubt the benefits of lockdown in the long term in this regard. Given that ~80% of adults are vaccinated (considerably skewed to the older more at risk groups), the benefits of vaccinating the young, who are close to zero risk anyway, is well into the realms diminishing returns.
If ensuring that 20 year olds are double dosed, when their CFR requires three decimal places, is the golden ticket out of requiring another lockdown, I would argue the problems are elsewhere.
Is no one concerned about the vaccination of pregnant women? I presume, that the dismissal of possible side-effects can be accepted from the original research but with Thalidomide’s horrific results in the recent past, I would have thought that pregnant women should avoid anything that can not be proved to be safe for both them AND their unborn child
Why are governments not supporting taking Vitamins D and C, Zinc, Quercetin plus other products which boost the immune system and /or prevent people who have caught Covid becoming worse? Why have’nt detailed studies been done on those who are at most risk ? Both these measures along with vaccination would reduce those getting Covid and resources could be more effectively targeted?
There’s no money in these inexpensive solutions. It wouldn’t be fair on big pharma as it might ruin the biggest revenue bonanza in their history. Heck, Moderna would probably have gone bankrupt if this hadn’t come along so it was such a fortunate coincidence. Last thing they need is any inexpensive solutions that might greatly reduce hospitalisations.
There’s a well-designed site with references to original scientific studies (peer-reviewed and otherwise) at https://c19vitamind.com/ for VitD.
The site also has a lots to offer on other therapies (I’m not connected with the site – just an admirer).
As to why governments aren’t taking this up – that’s a political question!
I don’t understand why this perfectly reasonable comment has attracted so many down-votes.
Because the covid response is NOT about health – but to bring in a new Feudalism. These lockdowns are the same as the things which were being done in Germany in the 1930s to bring the world to totalitarian control. This is NOT about health. This is a Pluticractic Elite out to enslave the world. You Frogs do not even notice how warm the water is getting….
Isn’t it also about recognising that people ‘do their bit’ in many ways? Maybe unvaccinated people already had the disease as they were unable to isolate earlier in the pandemic? Maybe they are more aware of how the disease spreads and are less cavalier then their vaccinated friends? Maybe they don’t lurk indoors becoming increasingly likely to need medical care because of diminished immune systems? Or maybe none of the above.
You make a big deal of the idea that no system is perfect and yet you say something as crass as the vaccinated shouldn’t have to suffer because they’ve done their bit aka they are now above reproach. What if that same vaccinated person drinks and smokes heavily, is severely overweight, has diabetes or is just elderly. All of those things contribute to their being more likely to take up space in the health system of the country, whether they develop Covid19 or not.
Personally I think everyone is entitled to nonjudgmental health care regardless of the personal choices they make that mean they require it. When did it become a question of a health care system that can only cope if it imprisons 30% of its population for doing much less than most people do every day when they choose much more risky behaviours which will have a much greater impact on their health?
This stuff is nuts. It lumps hugely diverse groups of people into being either good or bad without any recognition of the vast variety of moral and practical choices every one of us makes every day. All based on flaky evidence that any of the public health policies undertaken since the start of this thing have any definitive effect, at least when you take into consideration both the huge variety in human behaviour and the fact that a large part of society relies on another part to do all it’s dirty work for them and basically carry on as normal.
This is not an imperfect solution. This is a horrific solution, by every metric. And yes, I am pro vaccine but what other people do is none of my business and I don’t wish them to suffer in my name, thank you very much.
I just wanted to say thank you for your very reasonable comment. Being reasonable with each other is probably the best route we all have of putting this giant hot mess behind us all.
Very well said Laura…thank you.
Your reasoning is completely flawed. The point is that vaccinated people can transmit and spread the virus. This makes the lockdown of unvaccinated completely ludicrous and obviously points at a more sinister reason. The irony that this apartheid is taking place in Austria is not lost on people.
If you start making the argument about unvaccinated people being unworthy of treatment, then I’m sure you will agree that no fat people, no type 2 diabetics, no smokers, no drinkers, no drug addicts, no non seatbelt wearing drivers, no skydivers and the like should be afforded medical treatment. Shame on you.
Vaccinated people are much less likely to pass on the virus, although it’s still possible
That’s not what lots of the data says Rodney, but don’t let that stop a good big pharma press release lie spreading.
Just look at the Zoe C-19 citizen science analyses of real world reported results by millions of people in the UK from an app
It says that effectivivty has dropped to almost 50% after 6 months no? And very hard to know if those 50% that are still good alredy had covid …
I think you will find that is untrue as I have seen this happening time after time in my work where Everybody is vaccinated.
How far should we take this principle?Obesity kills. It’s a drain on any health service. Likewise smoking. Can we lockdown those people until they comply with medical advice?
The issue is not about about vaccination. It’s about how much power the state has over citizens. How easily can people be coerced into medical treatment or perhaps other actions against their will? Parents of down syndrome foetuses who wilfully insist on having a child that will need more from a health care system perhaps? Could they be compelled to abort. How far do you want to take the idea that people are the property of the state?
GOOD summary thanks
Where are people left dying outside of hospitals? Can you show me?
since when people have to save hospitals? I thought hospitals were made to save people instead? Wouldn’t it been cheaper, more effective, and more humane just to build more hospitals? Instead you have to do lockdowns and segregation?
The comedy of all that fanfare & planning of Nightingale hospitals in the beginning of 2020 only to be dismantled and never to be spoken about. They could have been exclusive Covid hospitals. Staff could have been hired and trained and resources diverted in that way. How can we ever expect to get over the hospital crisis situation EVER if nothing is done about it? It will remain a crisis because 1) we don’t educate people about health, balanced eating living etc . Medicine is all about fire fighting and even preventative medicine is all about early treatment, not education.2) if hospitals are always in crisis, build more, hire more staff. However the public is being squeezed into one direction only, that being towards the holy vaccines .
If your argument was any true, they would only insist on people of risk (elders and with comorbidities) to get vaccinated, as they are the only ones likely to require hospitalization.
Yet, we are told that everyone, even children and people that have been through covid must be vaccinated? How does that help the NHS?
Why are covid certificates for people that got covid only valid 6 months when their immunity is more long lasting than the one of the vaccine?
Lets throw everyone in jail because then they won’t commit crimes, which would necessitate throwing more people in jail.
Nice to see not everyone on this thread is as thick as two short planks. Well said: voice of reason.
Not true from what I read
As its impossible to know exactly where someone picked up the infection how do you know the vaxxed spread it ‘just as easily’?
For starters, besides one on one evidence of transmission, go to countries that have people in hospital and dying that are mainly vaccinated. Israel anyone…? I think they are running at 90% vaccinated. Lock up the unvaccinated…. Huh?.
Not JUST as easily.. and it’s not the spreading that is the major problem. It’s the unvaxed running a real risk of severe symptoms (unlike the vaxed) and so overwhelming hospital beds and ICUs.
If that was what they were really worried about they woudn’t be in such a rush to get rid of tens of thousands of doctors and nurses.
That’s anti-Vaxx fake information. Research has confirmed that the risk of spreading it is significantly reduced.
So not ‘just as easily’.
I got my booster jab yesterday–and The WHO–which says I took it away from someone in the Third World–can go pound sand. According to you, I’ve done my bit, though others, including most, if not all “medical experts” on the BBC who say I’m quite selfish and should just wait it out. Trust the science, not the scientists!
But this is crazy, tyrannical, the opposite of freedom. This is a trick for evil government leaders, here, the “beloved” (according to the neutral and fair-minded BBC) Jacinda Ardern in NZ, and other places, to gain more control of sheep–I mean population.
I’ll bet you wear a mask all the time as a symbol of your virtue!
Good point
False dilemma. (Full) lockdowns are useless.
You could be right. I’m leaning more and more to this point of view
You could always just not go into lockdown. Just a thought.
like if lockdows worked for anything …
But why is C still rampant in Austria , if it is, given so.many are vaccinated?
In Ireland we have a 92 per cent vaccination rate, and they want to lockdown the unvaccinated. This has nothing to do with people’s health.
Wasn’t 80% the supposed “herd-immunity” threshold? I’ve not been able to keep up with the goal-posts.
Maybe, but you can’t achieve herd immunity using vaccines since they don’t provide immunity but only lessen the symptoms, and their effect on reducing spreading is not currently quantified.
I suspect that natural herd immunity is no long possible for covid, just as it isn’t for flu. It might still be possible with vaccines though
You’ve just contradicted my assertion! Only one of us can be right.
Of course you can’t–Fauci keeps moving them!
Yes, and cases are soaring! That could be what’s in store for the UK as vaccines wear off, if people don’t get boosters.
Israel was ahead of everyone, and squashed the virus with vaccines. Then cases soared, but they sorted out their booster program, and levels are very low again
But now they are recommending a further booster!!…
When does it end!!
He is linking vaccinations and the downward trend of the epidemic wave, forgetting that countries that didn’t lockdown or vaccinate also had the downward trend of the epidemic wave. It was magic!
Israel has squashed the virus? They had the highest vaccination rate in the world and just went through a huge epidemic wave -the highest wave they have had since the beginning.
The vaccines are worthless. The boosters don’t actually boost, according to the trial data of the 3rd round in the USA. The way they got approved was by showing a higher level of antibodies. This did not translate into fewer cases – there were raging COVID cases amongst the triple boosted in the trials, but the FDA just redefined what “success” means.
Moreover the vaccines can be dangerous. They aren’t the nice friendly AZ vaccine you have in the UK. Where I live Moderna is 40% of all vaccines and Moderna was just banned by France and the Nordics for the under 30s due to heart damage … note: that is just one of many injuries you can get from these. I know women of child bearing age who have lost their periods for months. Doctors are ignoring them (“just wait and see if it gets better”), this isn’t being reported or tracked.
All the arguments about hospitalizations are flawed because they assume that nobody ends up in a hospital because of the vaccines. That is manifestly not true. The ladies with the now broken reproductive systems are going to be demanding proper investigations sooner or later, and they’ll be going into hospitals to do it.
And let’s not talk about the sudden rash of dead sportsmen we now have ….
It boils over into unrest, then war. How can people not see that?
If we’re going to throw around sentences like “doing your bit”, then that should also include opposing apartheid legislation that moves society closer to starting wars.
That 30% will become angry (with good reason) and they’ll have nothing to lose. Imagine you are part of that 30% for just one minute. What would you do?
Would you say thd same if it was anthrax or bubonic plague? Is it a question of degree or should everyone be “free” no matter how dangerous they are?
This kind of thing truly is chilling. I watched an interview where one of the interviewees took exception to likening Covid restrictions of this kind to an attack on our liberty and freedom that echoed the assaults on our freedoms for which men died in the war.
His argument was that this was a crass and inappropriate distinction to make so close to remembrance Sunday as, in his words; ‘This is about saving lives’
But all human atrocities are committed as a result of some supposed greater good that gains a hideous momentum of its own. To be so at ease with measures like these and to think that the ‘This is to save lives’ argument is the game changer that distinguishes this mass ostracism from all others is naive at best. Evil does not only rarely recognise itself; it often pats it’s self on the back for its beneficence.
Governments of Europe should quickly relearn this lesson and pull back from these measures.
Approximately 657,000 abortions take place annually in the U.S. alone.
I liked your phrase “hideous momentum of its own”. As reported by the BBC earlier (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-59291465). “The [First Minister] (of Scotland) says it makes no sense to offer an alternative to vaccination as part of a scheme aimed at driving up vaccination numbers”. Either that’s a tautology or it’s a tyrannical political agenda. I wonder when the pogrom will start.
I am vehemently pro-vaccine, in part precisely because I am equally vehemently anti-mask and vaccination undermines the rationale for masking. That said, treating the unvaccinated as second-class citizens is simply foul.
There’s our answer to the current shame of unvaccinated care workers being sacked. In the first paragraph Freddie refers to people getting daily tests because they are unvaccinated.
So why didn’t our government copy that simple solution for our care workers?And, yes I know all the arguments about false test results. And, yes I am personally fully vaccinated including for flu.
However, I respect other people’s personal rights to refuse vaccination. This has been going on for many years for other diseases without the screaming condemnation and now life changing job losses.
If the goal is to protect the elderly in care homes, then daily tests are a simple solution to minimise disruption to those very vulnerable people.
Why was this brutal and highly disruptive action taken with such speed and no consideration of any other way to manage the situation.
When we thought we had seen it all in this pandemic, in terms of trespassing moral red lines that were unthinkable only two years ago, we are suprised once again.
Thank you for the great work at UnHerd.
A few months ago someone was pilloried for using the expression: ‘vaccines make you free’ . Unfortunately, it would appear to have been a prescient observation. How sad that the mRNA ‘vaccines’ do not actually immunise anyone from catching covid or prevent them from passing it on.
He was probably pilloried because it became clear early on that the vaccines weren’t silver bullets but would largely reduce your risk of ending up in hospital should you catch covid. That goes (or should have gone) a long way to ensuring that ICUs aren’t overwhelmed and we can get through the winter without a full lockdown.
Unfortunately, too many politicians failed to communicate that the key argument for vaccination was exactly that reduction in risk of having to go to hospital and their grandiose statements are now backfiring on them.
You do know that until recently, these vaccines were experimental, right? So at the time, various governments were forcing the population to put an experimental vaccine in their bodies. Most of the “vaccines” are no longer experimental, but have they really been studied long enough? I strongly suspect that the definition of “experimental” changed–for example, if previous requirements were that a vaccine must be studied for at least 3 years. Or 5 years.
The clown show that is the US has a govt. agenda crafting an “emergency” policy forcing vaccines on those who don’t want them. Took them 2 months. Emergency?
I made the right choice for me. I rely on others to do the same.
By the way, do you–and the so-called “medical experts,” feel the same way about the seasonal flu jab? Perhaps that should be mandatory and part of the passport. No flu shot, you get locked down!
Especially for the children. They are far more at risk from flu than they are from Covid. Lock down all the children every winter. It is the humane thing to do.
They were thoroughly tested, just like all vaccines
Where are you getting your information Rodney?
They really were not thoroughly tested in the same way as other vaccines. Not in the slightest.
Even the animal trials were skipped, which is a VERY scary thought for anyone who has taken Moderna as in ten years they didn’t manage to get a single ‘vaccine’ to move beyond the animal testing stage. Not one. The animals all died.
Also, if you study the trials Pfizer did there have been some huge irregularities, which are slowly coming out.
Watch the recent testimony from the editor of the BMJ who explains some of these things. It will open your eyes as to what is really going on, so that you will see straight through the pharmaceutical company’s press releases, which are designed to maximise their revenues, not to tell you the truth.
And you do know that Pfizer paid the largest criminal fine ever (over two billion dollars in 2009 if I remember rightly) which was partly for lying about test results and partly for bribing doctors and scientists.
They threw huge sums at it to allow in-parallel testing at risk of wasting it all. It wasn’t skimped.
Of course, they have now been effectively tested in the real world, and have been shown to be extremely safe, especially when compared with getting Covid
“vaccines weren’t silver bullets”
not silver, but still weapons to control people just like guns and lead bullets do. (And make the wealthy fantastically wealthy! The super rich have Doubled their wealth in 18 Months because of the madness of the covid response, and that was its point all along)
So why force them in kids, healthy people, and people that already had covid? They were not going to go to the hospitals anyway?
That isn’t clear at all. All the stats on hospitalization are hopelessly confounded, most likely to the point of worthlessness.
When will Austria and others realise that wearing masks has little effect? They’ve been forced to wear FFP2 masks indoors and on public transport for a long time now with near 100% compliance. The thing is, the FFP2 masks don’t stop virus particles and FFP3 masks which do are extremely expensive in comparison and without the outlet valve (which doesn’t protect others) it’s not so easy to breathe. So, going to a restaurant, you put the mask on, walk 5-10 m to your table and then take it off, then leaving it’s the same procedure. Then there’s the vaccine pass! No pass, no restaurants, no cafés, no museums, no hotels. If the vaccines stopped spreading I could see the sense. In conclusion, Austria has had some of the most stringent requirements in Europe in public life for handling the pandemic but they haven’t made a lot of difference, so why not go the whole hog and put into place even more stringent and meaningless measures? I spent 10 days there in late september, luckily with a vaccine pass but it’s a lot more pleasant at home in Stockholm, no face masks, no lockdown, no vaccine pass needed, with fairly limited spreading although I’ve no idea why?
FFP2s do block the virus, but I think that they are not noticeably effective in practice, possibly because you can’t wear one all the time. I still wear one when I’m near people because I don’t find them much bother. They might stop me sneezing on someone!
Read up on the facts, particularly filter dimensions contra virus particle size. You’re posting a lot of false assertions here.
And here’s the paradox: when I have had a mask on (seldom) and feel like sneezing I take it off and sneeze into my handkerchief or elbow. I don’t want all of my bacteria accumulating on the inside. So do you put on a new mask after you’ve sneezed?
I continuously read scientific research.
It’s the larger droplets that carry the virus that some masks block. The virus doesn’t float around on its own, and this is not false.
Of course, that doesn’t mean they do much good in the real world, a bit like washing hands, which is just a bit of theatre to make you feel like you are achieving something
So try to find an FFP2 mask which is certified for protecting against virus and bacteria? Reading scientific research is fine but a lot of research publications are probably trying to prove a particular theory and there’s no end of contradicting theories circulating and being forwarded over the last 20 months.
So, I’ve to “Read up on the facts” but ignore research publications because they “are probably trying to prove a particular theory”. That seems to only leave the facts that you agree with
Research shows it is the aerosol that spreads it and not the droplets which fall to earth quickly and if they were inhsled they’d get dealt with n the mouth or nose, whereas the aerosol is more likely to travel into the lungs. That is why longer contact in a confined space is how people get it d rarely from just passing a person.
Yes, it would have been more correct if I had said aerosols rather than droplets, but my point to Stephen that FFP2 masks block viruses still stands. Their effectiveness is reduced if, for example, they fit poorly. I question if they are all that useful in practice, but am happy to continue wearing them when near people – especially indoors
I may have to revise my opinions. Apparently, mask-wearing is the single most effective public health measure at tackling Covid, reducing incidence by 53%.
Results from more than 30 studies from around the world were analysed in detail, showing a statistically significant 53% reduction in the incidence of Covid with mask wearing and a 25% reduction with physical distancing.
https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068302
I’m not surprised you perceive a class divide in all this, Freddie. Hasn’t it been those of us most able to distance ourselves from the dirty disease and the dirty people who carry it who’ve been most supportive of anything that distances us from them?
In fact, here in Italy, my pro vaccine friends are always the most vociferous while my unvaccinated friends quietly keep to themselves. You’d never think that if you watched the news here, where nightly images of ultra violent anti vax crowds are broadcast without context and with huge prejudice. It’s got to the point where a very meek, gentle friend of mine was forwarding messages from protest organisers saying don’t go to the protests because they are full of agent provocateurs.
On the other hand, the pro vaccine crowd are very fearful of the ‘ongoing emergency’, they are convinced that Italians are different and will only obey more laws because they don’t obey the current ones and that, in an emergency, it is definitely better to do something rather than nothing – which is apparently the only other alternative to vaccine mandates.
I live in great trepidation that any spike in numbers here will lead to the same politically led actions the Austrian government have taken and think about how I will be able to help the people I know who have largely chosen not to be vaccinated because they’ve either had the disease or have genuine mistrust of the medical establishment for one reason or another.
Enjoy your trip to Vienna
If demographic results of death are ever done by income (and it is basically forbidden) it shows the wealthy had almost no mortality, and the poorer, the higher death rates. Lots of various causation, but still – the rich went through this laughing – they suffered virtually no mortality, and doubled their money in these 2 years!
covid-19 if firstly a disease of the low income, then of the working class, then of the middle class – and it basically stopped by Upper Middle… The statistics are few, but when you find them they totally show this!
Galeti,
okay, I’m going to be pedantic – only because you are normally more careful
You said “If demographic results…”, and, “…it shows…”, I’m sure you understand the implication.
I, however, suspect that your suspicions are well-founded, and would love to see the “…few…” statistics that you have had access to; links please.
all the best
Red
This is really horrible!
What right has a government or 70% percent of the population to deprive the other 30% of their freedoms. What’s next, concentration camps? It is unbelievable how people still think that the vaccine is the only reason they can “live without lockdowns”. Without paying attention to so many countries and regions that did exactly the same without them.
I am sure the Nazi’s also told people that sending “Jews” to camps was the only way they could live a normal life. Amazing how societies can make the same mistakes so many times.
Well, in Italy is even worse as you can’t even work.
And also now in the UK if you work in a care home
They’re desperate – coercively get the Bioweapon into every arm before a significant portion of the population realise exactly what’s going on!
Two thoughts.
With part of Austria under restricted movement and the other not, I guess the scientists will finally have an NPI experiment with a decent control group not based on socioeconomic strata (I’m sure they’re clever enough to factor in the different susceptibility to develop infection and disease based on vaccine status by now).
On the other side, here in Italy, since the non-vaccinated basically can’t do any of the things that were previously restricted, including going to work (but not socialising at home as that was never really restricted here in Italy even if they brought in a nominal rule for it) without a negative test, it’s clear they are not the drivers of the local infection/disease burden. I wonder how that is going to play out long term and what epidemiological scientists can make of it.
Don’t get me wrong, both sets of mandates are horrific but maybe they can lead to something positive rather than just a very bad case of scapegoating.
I lament the fact that so many have become rubes in this toxic, social media frenzied world, where half of us read one thing and the other half read something completely different. This leads to the division that the elite want in order to fully control us.
Freddie – I would be interested to know if there has been any attempt to justify this new policy by demonstrating how it will be effective. No doubt it is easy to produce numbers showing the level of ICU activity but why will these new rules change that and by degree?
From the country that gave you Adolf Hitler comes another beaut.
When and how will this insanity end?
Looks like the Unherd readership has been infected with rabid anti-vaxxers.
Better be careful editors – some of these comments are very ropey.
Welcome to Vienna, Freddie! Enjoy your stay – despite the horrid November weather. A few comments from me on this:
1 – Medical grade masks are much in evidence because, where you have to wear a mask (public transport, the cinema etc.), the ffp2 type is mandatory.
2 – “There is very little sympathy for a truculent minority that is seen as “stupid” and “having brought it on themselves”.” Classic Vienna. This might be one of the most beautiful cities in the world, but its people make Parisians look reasonably friendly. There’s even a special name for their brand of grumpiness: the Viennese “Grant” (noun) or “grantig sein/granteln” (verb). The Austrians, but particularly the Viennese, love a bit of schadenfreude and looking down their noses at other people who haven’t quite come up to scratch and that’s gone into overdrive with this lockdown of the non-vaccinated.
3 – I honestly don’t think this measure will be successful. I believe there will be a full lockdown before Christmas. What’s important to me is that ALL other avenues are explored first before going there. That means tightening the thumbscrews on the non-vaccinated and, if that doesn’t work, introducing mandatory vaccination. Only if that is all done and the ICUs are still crying for help will this citizen accept a full lockdown. That does mean I accept a bit of actionism on the part of politicians – but the order of things is important to me.
4 – The politicians have been caught with their pants down again. I get why they didn’t go the full authoritarian right away…Italy put the boot in right away at the end of summer and there was unrest, which Austria didn’t quite fancy, so it just tried nudging, encouraging and thinking “it’ll be alright on the night”…way past the point where it was obvious nowhere near enough people would be immunised to avoid catastrophe in winter (mid-September, I’d say). And now, as they say in Austrian dialect “homma den Solot” (“we’re up s*** creek”).
5 – You really have some unbelievable politicians here, peddling dangerous, stupid stuff. Like the former Minister for the Interior, Herbert Kickl. He’s been quoted as saying he won’t get the vaccination, but will rely on “bitter substances” (Bitterstoffe), and, if he does get covid, try out horse worming medication as a remedy. This is someone who, not so very long ago, occupied one of the main offices of state. It is frightening that people spouting such dangerous nonsense even have a platform.
Interesting thoughts, thanks Katharine!
I shall look forward to watching the special report when it’s out!
I sincerely hope you aren’t supporting the enforced apartheid of the vaccinated and unvaccinated Freddie. This is a scary, draconian overreach of a government and to make matters worse, the actions have no logical basis.
And supporting a commentary which uses terms like ‘full authoritarian’ and ‘putting the boot in’ in a positive way, is very unsavoury.
Hi Freddy
By “horse worming drugs,” I assume you mean ivermectin, which is an anti-parasitcal drug used by billions of humans that also has vetinary application as is common in many drugs. Terming it a horse de-wormer is disingenuous propaganda.
Personally, I have little opinion in its efficacy as a SARS-CoV-2 anti-viral. I do have an opinion about referring to an essential drug used throughout the world entirely safely as a drug for farmyard animals as a contemptible attempt to block any non-vaccine and non-lockdown attempt to address this pandemic.
Yes, this is a good point. Of the drugs used to treat Covid – prior to the recent anti viral developments – one was a steroid and the other an anti depressant. Merely dismissing something on the basis that it is anti parasitic rather than anti viral is clearly not a touch down; though I understand the science for the particular one referred to is less than convincing. The point is ‘ha; ha, it’s for parasites -duh!’ is not in and of itself convincing
The EMA advised against the use of ivermectin to prevent/treat covid back in March 2021. That is a good enough reason for me not to listen to any politician (and least of all Herbert Kickl) advocating it.
And nothing has changed since March 2021?
It amuses me no end when people show how little they understand about medicine and science that they don’t know that many medicines are used in human and non human animals. Someone should tell them about penicillin….as a start.
Indeed. Use anti-biotics and you can be accused of using ‘horse medicine’.
Katherine obviously watches CNN 24/7. They have been heavily criticized for their incessant attacks on Ivermectin, which is not first and foremost a horse deworming medicine, but a medicine which has been given to billions of human beings.
CNN are heavily financed and sponsored by Pfizer, so CNN clearly have their clear mandate and news agenda. Pity that so many people remain ignorant of this and just continue to lap up corporate news.
Interesting that the new Pfizer anti-viral has the same pharmaceutical action as …. Ivermectin.
A truly on-the-spot, well-argued post showing a lot of different sides of the story. Normally someone claims ‘freedom of the individual’, which can be translated as ‘freedom for me personally to do anything, regardless of other people’.
This idea of vaccination being a personal choice has been around for over 100 years. HL Mencken in 1912 was campaigning for vaccination against typhoid but thousands of people wanted to be free to die from typhoid – basically meaning that they, themselves, didn’t feel at risk of dying and they didn’t really care about other people.
Thanks Chris. I’m clearly not in a pool of the like-minded on this one, but I carry on regardless. Under normal circumstances, I would never be in favour of mandatory vaccination. But I feel like we’ve been through almost all the milder alternatives, the virus is still running out of control, our (actually pretty well funded and equipped) healthcare system is creaking and that the vaccine is our best shot at managing it. It’s time.
Those arguing that it’s unfair to put 30% of the population in house arrest might consider that we live in a democracy where the choice of the majority dictates the regime and the political choices we live under for the foreseeable future. Normally, that doesn’t involve such drastic things as pandemic control choices. But, the fact is that we are in a drastic situation that requires controversial choices. As part of the (clear) majority in this case, I argue that it would be unconscionable for me and my fellow vaccinated citizens to be held hostage by the choice of the minority (regardless of what reasons they give).
This is going to be a big test of the maturity of Austria’s democracy and the participants in it. Hopefully it will emerge stronger.
I understand why you would think your line of argument reasonable. The problem is it still assumes this vaccination or incarceration choice is rational, therefore we can blame the non compliant for lockdown rather than the false assumption of the legislators. There is an alternative – don’t brutalised your citizens in the name of antiquated ideas of disease control.
Corona is epidemic in deer in the US, and deer are everywhere. How long before it starts to infect deer in Europe or other animals throughout the world?
Would you require mandatory vaccines for wild animals, or would you lock them down?
She would put them down probably?
Fuchi needs to figure out how mask them ASAP. Apparently he is good with animals. Can’t have millions of diseased deer sneezing on us and giving us covid…..
Fauci has been involved in a recent scandal with dogs – something about experiments that eat the face of dogs. Haven’t read it – can’t. This man is the poster boy for low life.
Katherin, I am Rabidly anti any covid responce past people using common sense and science trying for answers, from all avenues, which they are not.
BUT I am very glad to have you posting here. This place is too close to being an echo chamber, and that does no one good at all –
Keep giving your truth Katherine, it is what we all must do so we can be exposed to the greater story. You are a well respected poster here, and good for you for being a voice in opposition.
I agree with one exception. I HATE the phrase “your truth.” With respect, may I suggest your opinion?
It’s not “my truth” is I post that the world is flat, or I’m just not sure about gravity…..
But you are right on Katherine and also UnHerd: this should not be an echo chamber. For reason’s I don’t understand, Katherine has lost the plot on this one. But let the debate roar!
I agree. Katherine’s comments are pretty good, I just really disagree with her specific stance on accepting this false dichotomy between lockdown and vaccine.
I haven’t even downvoted, I only reserve that for troll posts.
I was strolling down through the comments and wondered whether to comment anymore, but for this one I just have to. I’m afraid this is an example of how pro vaxer and anti vaxer sentiment can become equally unhelpful.
SARS CoV 2 is not one of these viruses we have any hope of eradicating through vaccination (and please do look that up). Therefore any example of where this strategy has worked are not relevant.
The only example of a virus we vaccinate for that is nearly comparable is flu. Here, we offer vaccine (one dose) on a voluntary basis to those most vulnerable. With Covid, it’s three vaccines (and counting), mandated and for everyone (or, at least, the mission creep is such to mean everyone will soon be up).
That’s why lots of people who are saying they take and give vaccines to themselves and their children are hesitant about mandating for this one. It is absolutely not irresponsible anti vax sentiment, as you imply.
Was there unrest in Italy? You mean a few people went on day out. From what I hear people are.very happy with their vaccine passport.
You referred to “people” in the above post. I think you meant “sheep.”
Katherine, I tried to up vote you but it was counted as a down vote – I’m hoping the other down votes were actually up votes too:)
Click on the “thumb up” again 😉
WTF is the deal with downvotes??
Probably because of your penultimate post. I could understand that there’s a pushback from the comment that people are happy with the vaccine passport. I’m definitely not but I was forced into getting it after 18 months of not being able to travel.
I’m just swimming against a pretty big tide on unherd with my opinions today!
To be expected when you argue for medical apartheid based on no logic whatsoever. Frankly I find it shocking.
Please keep at it!
Freddie’s article makes me want to visit Vienna again soon. I love it (except for the food)
Why do you refer to Ivermectin, a perfectly legitimate Nobel Prize winning medicine, and one of the most used drugs in the world for over half a century as ‘horse dewormer’? And since when have people not been allowed to choose how they deal with an ailment. It sounds like you are promoting a medical tyranny in which only big pharma is right.
Maybe you and your clear passion for vaccines are right, or maybe there are valid alternatives. Sometimes people who are 100% sure they are right turn out to be completely wrong. Without an open mind we’d still be using leeches and electric shock treatment.
I’d prefer to live in a world where we can freely discuss and debate, and respect other’s choices.
May I suggest that you visit the site https://c19ivermectin.com/ which references a large number of studies (some good, some bad, some peer-reviewed, some not) of the efficacy of Ivermectin in respect of Covid19 treatment and summarises the results for non-specialists. It provides an easy drill-down mechanism for you to check the results for yourself. I would be interested to hear your comments after you have reviewed the data.
I have no association with the site.