X Close

Don’t be fooled: China wants Russian victory in Ukraine

Studied neutrality. Credit: Getty.

February 28, 2023 - 6:30pm

Top Western political and security officials have grown increasingly alarmed about the prospect of China providing Russia with lethal military equipment to bolster its war effort in Ukraine.

Just this weekend, CIA director William Burns said that he was “confident” that the Chinese leadership was considering the move, with US President Joe Biden explicitly threatening to “respond” should China follow through with it.

Publicly, Beijing has taken something of a neutral position on the war and, last week, it published a position paper on the “Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis”. The communiqué’s listed principles include respect for “the sovereignty of all countries”, “stopping unilateral sanctions”, “abandoning the Cold War mentality”, “ceasing hostilities”, “resuming peace talks”, “protecting civilians and prisoners of war (POWs)”, “promoting post-conflict reconstruction”, and stressing the need to abide by international law. At no point does it denounce or even explicitly mention Russia’s invasion. However, in one part of the document China apparently takes a shot at NATO, asserting that “the security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs”.

And with an eye to its own national interests, given recent threats of sanction from the US and other Western countries, China stakes its opposition to “unilateral sanctions unauthorized by the UN Security Council”, urging these states to “stop abusing unilateral sanctions and “long-arm jurisdiction” against other countries. This comes in the wake of sanctions threats by a high-ranking US Treasury official to punish Chinese companies if they continue doing business with certain Russian firms. Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Mao Ning countered these statements, saying that “the US is in no position to point fingers at China-Russia relations” and that Beijing will “not accept coercion or pressure from the US”.

Yet, despite this seemingly impartial rhetoric, Manoj Kewalramani, author of the daily newsletter ‘Tracking People’s Daily’, has said of the paper that “no one who reads this can come away with the idea that China is in any way a neutral mediator.” He is one of several analysts to argue that China clearly wants to see a Russian military victory in Ukraine.

Raffaello Pantucci, Senior Fellow at RSIS, told UnHerd that such an outcome “would be perceived as a win by its ‘side’ in the geopolitical confrontation against the West”. Moreover, it would “emphasise that the ‘might is right’ approach to international affairs is dominant and the rules-based system championed by the West is in the past”. China does not view the outbreak of this conflict as ideal, however: “now the cards have been dealt, they are playing them to their advantage — which means supporting Moscow.”

And although there is no concrete evidence of China supplying Russia with weapons, armour, or ammunition thus far, Beijing has supported the Russian campaign in several other ways. Pantucci notes how China is helping economically, technologically, and by “providing some cover to Russia on the international stage, in the UN and elsewhere”, leveraging its influence as the world’s second largest economy. The Wall Street Journal reported this month that Chinese state-owned defence companies were supplying Russia with jamming technology, jet-fighter parts, and shipping navigation equipment to Russian firms. 

Carl Peterson, a security analyst for the Militant Wire research network, adds that if Beijing becomes more deeply involved with lethal provisions, it “could be part of a longer-term play in which the US is tied down in the European theatre”. There are already worries about the depletion of NATO member countries’ weapons stockpiles, so any added military industrial support from China would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for Ukraine-supporting states to match.

But the past year has shown a surprising degree of Western unity, and no end in the conflict appears to be in sight. Should the US and its allies succeed in defeating Russia in Ukraine, not only would a strategic partner with a lengthy shared border become weakened and perhaps unstable, but Washington would also become further emboldened and confident in its push to unite a coalition to contain China in the Asia-Pacific. In short, Beijing is worried that it is next in America’s sights.


Lucas Webber is the co-founder and editor of Militant Wire

LucasADWebber

Join the discussion


Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber


To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.

Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.

Subscribe
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

60 Comments
Most Voted
Newest Oldest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I don’t get it? Are we supposed to be surprised that China supports Russia? Is this some shocking revelation? The US is China’s biggest rival. They will support anyone that opposes the U.S. Also related, are we supposed to be shocked when China starts selling weapons to Russia?

This war needs to be settled diplomatically ASAP, before the conflict escalates even further? Yet it appears that Biden and Sullivan are determined to box these nuclear powers into a corner.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Looks like the war will end soon enough.

Putin is just expending his draftees for zero gain.

It won’t be long before they decide that dying for nothing is not a good career option.

D Walsh
DW
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

The Russians are winning

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

That’s why a single Naval Infantry Brigade that began with 1000 men has lost 8000 so far, and counting.
Like Trump’s supporters, they may get tired of winning.

Bruce Edgar
BE
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Historically, the Russians have shown themselves to be very brave. They have never been invited to attend D-Day type memorials in France and England. But singlehandedly they withstood an invasion from approx. 160 of Hitler’s fresh, crack divisions. They lost almost everything as they eudured for over two years, but they succeeded. After millions of their own population killed, and their great cities destroyed. Ultimately, they chased the Nazi invaders (like they chased Napoliean) all the way back to Berlin. They were the first to enter that city. They found Hitler’s remains.The victory was theirs alone.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

That’s a fun meme produced by the Soviets. and we should get down on our knees and be grateful that the Russians actually believe it.
Factually, 40% of Nazi industry was focused on building high tech weapons like planes and missiles. Those were used almost exclusively against the western allies from 1943 (nearly the whole German air force was withdrawn in that year to stop allied bombing).
Moreover, the western allies supplied 400,000 trucks, 15,000 planes and 15,000 tanks (the USSR produced a total of 30,000 ~T-34s).
Without the trucks none of the deep offensives launched by Zhukov would have succeeded. Things would have ben much more like Bakhmut. The eventual border with the SU would have probably been more like Romania and the Baltics.
Indeed, lack of transport is what doomed Putin’s invasion last year.

Jonny Stud
JS
Jonny Stud
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Didn’t the avenging red army have insane casualty rates, as high as 80% sometimes, and they essentially won because they could afford to lose more bodies? Easy to be brave and run towards the enemy when your own commissars will shoot you for not doing so and the secret police will hang any deserters they track down……Now I’m not saying lots of russians weren’t brave but it was hardly their victory alone.

Simon Blanchard
SB
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Point of order: they didn’t find H*tler’s remains. The bones were recently proven to be those of a woman. Unless he WAS a woman!?

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

That’s a fun meme produced by the Soviets. and we should get down on our knees and be grateful that the Russians actually believe it.
Factually, 40% of Nazi industry was focused on building high tech weapons like planes and missiles. Those were used almost exclusively against the western allies from 1943 (nearly the whole German air force was withdrawn in that year to stop allied bombing).
Moreover, the western allies supplied 400,000 trucks, 15,000 planes and 15,000 tanks (the USSR produced a total of 30,000 ~T-34s).
Without the trucks none of the deep offensives launched by Zhukov would have succeeded. Things would have ben much more like Bakhmut. The eventual border with the SU would have probably been more like Romania and the Baltics.
Indeed, lack of transport is what doomed Putin’s invasion last year.

Jonny Stud
JS
Jonny Stud
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Didn’t the avenging red army have insane casualty rates, as high as 80% sometimes, and they essentially won because they could afford to lose more bodies? Easy to be brave and run towards the enemy when your own commissars will shoot you for not doing so and the secret police will hang any deserters they track down……Now I’m not saying lots of russians weren’t brave but it was hardly their victory alone.

Simon Blanchard
SB
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Point of order: they didn’t find H*tler’s remains. The bones were recently proven to be those of a woman. Unless he WAS a woman!?

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

That’s why a single Naval Infantry Brigade that began with 1000 men has lost 8000 so far, and counting.
Like Trump’s supporters, they may get tired of winning.

Bruce Edgar
BE
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Historically, the Russians have shown themselves to be very brave. They have never been invited to attend D-Day type memorials in France and England. But singlehandedly they withstood an invasion from approx. 160 of Hitler’s fresh, crack divisions. They lost almost everything as they eudured for over two years, but they succeeded. After millions of their own population killed, and their great cities destroyed. Ultimately, they chased the Nazi invaders (like they chased Napoliean) all the way back to Berlin. They were the first to enter that city. They found Hitler’s remains.The victory was theirs alone.

Noel Chiappa
NC
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I don’t agree with your last assertion. That may be the way you would/do see it, but the Russians see things differently. Un-herd had a good story about this recently.

Elliott Bjorn
EB
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Martin – did you say Putin, or Zelenski? Because I think you may have made an error

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Ask the guys in Vuhledar.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Ask the guys in Vuhledar.

D Walsh
DW
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

The Russians are winning

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I don’t agree with your last assertion. That may be the way you would/do see it, but the Russians see things differently. Un-herd had a good story about this recently.

Elliott Bjorn
EB
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Martin – did you say Putin, or Zelenski? Because I think you may have made an error

Billy Bob
BB
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

How can it be solved diplomatically at present, short of a Ukrainian surrender that leaves them as a Russian vassal state similar to Belarus? What will Putin concede to guarantee Ukrainian safety in the future, even if the Ukrainians cede territory to make it happen?

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

We don’t know what we don’t know, but I’m sure that Putin would accept any deal that helps him save face while declaring some kind of victory,

Putin has spent a year slogging it out in the Ukraine for a war that was supposed to last three days. That should be more than enough assurance that he will think long and hard before doing it again.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Since Putin says that Russia will cease to exist without Ukraine, there is little chance he will accept anything but a frozen conflict.
To give up Ukraine means the destruction of Russia.
That’s just how he sees the world.

Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

Vladimir Putin says that. He doesn’t believe that.

Noel Chiappa
NC
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

It’s very unclear what Putin really believes. Which parts of his screed “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” does he really believe? Who knows?

Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

Good point. I don’t know what Vladimir Putin believes in his own head. No one else can. Maybe he doesn’t either. Sometimes it’s hard for me to tell what I really believe.
But I don’t think Vladimir Putin believes that Russia will cease to exist without Ukraine based on his actions, not his words. And actions do indeed speak louder than words.
Whatever he is, Vladimir Putin is no fool. He didn’t invade Ukraine for 8 years after annexing Crimea. I think he understands what he can do and what he can’t. His plans seem, by his actions, more pedestrian than grandiose.

Peter B
PB
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

He may or may not be a fool, but there’s little doubt that his invasion of Ukraine was a massive blunder and a disaster for Russia and the Russian people.
One other thought. There’s a well known phrase: “First rate people hire first rate people. Second rate people hire third rate people. And third rate people hire morons.”. Look at some of the people around Putin. Ask yourself if they’re first rate people.

Peter B
PB
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

He may or may not be a fool, but there’s little doubt that his invasion of Ukraine was a massive blunder and a disaster for Russia and the Russian people.
One other thought. There’s a well known phrase: “First rate people hire first rate people. Second rate people hire third rate people. And third rate people hire morons.”. Look at some of the people around Putin. Ask yourself if they’re first rate people.

Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

Good point. I don’t know what Vladimir Putin believes in his own head. No one else can. Maybe he doesn’t either. Sometimes it’s hard for me to tell what I really believe.
But I don’t think Vladimir Putin believes that Russia will cease to exist without Ukraine based on his actions, not his words. And actions do indeed speak louder than words.
Whatever he is, Vladimir Putin is no fool. He didn’t invade Ukraine for 8 years after annexing Crimea. I think he understands what he can do and what he can’t. His plans seem, by his actions, more pedestrian than grandiose.

Noel Chiappa
NC
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

It’s very unclear what Putin really believes. Which parts of his screed “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” does he really believe? Who knows?

Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

Vladimir Putin says that. He doesn’t believe that.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Since Putin says that Russia will cease to exist without Ukraine, there is little chance he will accept anything but a frozen conflict.
To give up Ukraine means the destruction of Russia.
That’s just how he sees the world.

B Emery
BE
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I actually came across this the other day, linked off another comment board, so not sure on the website it’s off, but seems a really good summary of all this, covers the peace plan etc. they have picked up on a Chinese official I think saying that china have spoken about a return to the Minsk 2 agreements:

‘On the Ukrainian issue, China believes that it is imperative to return to the Minsk II agreement, the starting point of this matter, as quickly as possible’

Source:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/02/us-hegemony-at-war-with-chinas-global-security-initiative.html#more

Have to say I haven’t read the whole lot on that link or checked it’s a good source, so you know, you’ll have to check it yourself.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Minsk II just means another war.
Frozen conflicts are designed to be unfrozen whenever Putin thinks the time is right.

B Emery
BE
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

You could have a point, especially with the china Taiwan business going on too, I saw your post at the bottom saying you think zelensky is just playing for time by considering the Chinese proposal, I think that’s actually a fair point too, you think they really won’t seriously consider it?
I have read elsewhere the opinion that America probably aren’t too happy about the Chinese being the ones to broker peace either.

B Emery
BE
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

You could have a point, especially with the china Taiwan business going on too, I saw your post at the bottom saying you think zelensky is just playing for time by considering the Chinese proposal, I think that’s actually a fair point too, you think they really won’t seriously consider it?
I have read elsewhere the opinion that America probably aren’t too happy about the Chinese being the ones to broker peace either.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Minsk II just means another war.
Frozen conflicts are designed to be unfrozen whenever Putin thinks the time is right.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Aren’t you betraying your own singular bias by continually repeating that Belarus is a Russian vassal state. By that definition the UK is a US vassal state, is it not?

Mark Goodhand
MG
Mark Goodhand
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

The UK is a US vassal state, sadly.
Has been since Suez, if not before.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Goodhand

Indeed. You are absolutely correct. My point was that you can’t denigrate Belarus for being a vassal state of Russia and not denigrate the UK and the rest of Europe for being vassal states of the US.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Goodhand

Indeed. You are absolutely correct. My point was that you can’t denigrate Belarus for being a vassal state of Russia and not denigrate the UK and the rest of Europe for being vassal states of the US.

Mark Goodhand
MG
Mark Goodhand
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

The UK is a US vassal state, sadly.
Has been since Suez, if not before.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

We don’t know what we don’t know, but I’m sure that Putin would accept any deal that helps him save face while declaring some kind of victory,

Putin has spent a year slogging it out in the Ukraine for a war that was supposed to last three days. That should be more than enough assurance that he will think long and hard before doing it again.

B Emery
BE
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I actually came across this the other day, linked off another comment board, so not sure on the website it’s off, but seems a really good summary of all this, covers the peace plan etc. they have picked up on a Chinese official I think saying that china have spoken about a return to the Minsk 2 agreements:

‘On the Ukrainian issue, China believes that it is imperative to return to the Minsk II agreement, the starting point of this matter, as quickly as possible’

Source:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/02/us-hegemony-at-war-with-chinas-global-security-initiative.html#more

Have to say I haven’t read the whole lot on that link or checked it’s a good source, so you know, you’ll have to check it yourself.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Aren’t you betraying your own singular bias by continually repeating that Belarus is a Russian vassal state. By that definition the UK is a US vassal state, is it not?

Joe Cowan
JC
Joe Cowan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I would argue that India is China’s biggest rival.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe Cowan

You might be right. They share a very contentious border. Hell, India may end up leading the democratic world in the not so distant future.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Doubtful.
As with all the BRICS, far too corrupt and/or ridden with ethnic hatreds.
China and India are building more coal-fired plants to increase the frequency of floods and droughts, while South Africa can’t even keep its grid going.
They all seem to be self-destructing.

Elliott Bjorn
EB
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

”They all seem to be self-destructing.”

If only it were just them……

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

Did you say China and India are building more coal plants to increase floods and droughts? I’m pretty sure that’s not why they are building them.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

They WILL produce more floods and droughts.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

In your imagination because there is absolutely zero evidence that this is the case.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

Doesn’t it need to be one or the other? Or are you saying climate change causes both drought and rain? Meanwhile, the earth is greener than it was 20 years ago and food production keeps setting records.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

In your imagination because there is absolutely zero evidence that this is the case.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

Doesn’t it need to be one or the other? Or are you saying climate change causes both drought and rain? Meanwhile, the earth is greener than it was 20 years ago and food production keeps setting records.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

They WILL produce more floods and droughts.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

You do realize that the recent floods in Bangladesh, for example, has nothing to do with climate change and were an entirely normal occurrence. So by repeating nonsense you basically devalue any valid points you might make.
The unfortunate truth, I suspect, is that the US is headed the way all great empires, from the Roman to the British, end up – down the drain. The future probably does indeed lie with India and China for some period of time, even if we can all agree that the system of government in those countries is either autocratic (China) or corrupt (India).

Elliott Bjorn
EB
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

”They all seem to be self-destructing.”

If only it were just them……

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

Did you say China and India are building more coal plants to increase floods and droughts? I’m pretty sure that’s not why they are building them.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

You do realize that the recent floods in Bangladesh, for example, has nothing to do with climate change and were an entirely normal occurrence. So by repeating nonsense you basically devalue any valid points you might make.
The unfortunate truth, I suspect, is that the US is headed the way all great empires, from the Roman to the British, end up – down the drain. The future probably does indeed lie with India and China for some period of time, even if we can all agree that the system of government in those countries is either autocratic (China) or corrupt (India).

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Doubtful.
As with all the BRICS, far too corrupt and/or ridden with ethnic hatreds.
China and India are building more coal-fired plants to increase the frequency of floods and droughts, while South Africa can’t even keep its grid going.
They all seem to be self-destructing.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe Cowan

You might be right. They share a very contentious border. Hell, India may end up leading the democratic world in the not so distant future.

martin logan
ML
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Looks like the war will end soon enough.

Putin is just expending his draftees for zero gain.

It won’t be long before they decide that dying for nothing is not a good career option.

Billy Bob
BB
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

How can it be solved diplomatically at present, short of a Ukrainian surrender that leaves them as a Russian vassal state similar to Belarus? What will Putin concede to guarantee Ukrainian safety in the future, even if the Ukrainians cede territory to make it happen?

Joe Cowan
JC
Joe Cowan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I would argue that India is China’s biggest rival.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I don’t get it? Are we supposed to be surprised that China supports Russia? Is this some shocking revelation? The US is China’s biggest rival. They will support anyone that opposes the U.S. Also related, are we supposed to be shocked when China starts selling weapons to Russia?

This war needs to be settled diplomatically ASAP, before the conflict escalates even further? Yet it appears that Biden and Sullivan are determined to box these nuclear powers into a corner.

Elliott Bjorn
EB
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

‘Don’t be fooled, China wants a Russian victory in Ukraine’

Fooled? hahaaa – Just asking – but who thought otherwise? Who was Fooled? some University diversity hire in the wrong bathroom? Because no one else was.

You should try different versions like:

Don’t be fooled, Biden is not doing this for the Ukrainians.’

or

”Don’t be fooled, Biden is not doing this for Democracy and Freedom.”

or

”Don’t be fooled, Biden is doing this because Zelenski knows where all the Biden family dirt is hidden.’

or

”Don’t be fooled, Biden is getting his ‘Big Guy’ 10%’

or…………………………

Because maybe a couple people have not figured those ones out yet…..

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

I thought it was 20%.
Looks like he’s getting generous in his old age.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

I thought it was 20%.
Looks like he’s getting generous in his old age.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

‘Don’t be fooled, China wants a Russian victory in Ukraine’

Fooled? hahaaa – Just asking – but who thought otherwise? Who was Fooled? some University diversity hire in the wrong bathroom? Because no one else was.

You should try different versions like:

Don’t be fooled, Biden is not doing this for the Ukrainians.’

or

”Don’t be fooled, Biden is not doing this for Democracy and Freedom.”

or

”Don’t be fooled, Biden is doing this because Zelenski knows where all the Biden family dirt is hidden.’

or

”Don’t be fooled, Biden is getting his ‘Big Guy’ 10%’

or…………………………

Because maybe a couple people have not figured those ones out yet…..

Mark Goodhand
MG
Mark Goodhand
1 year ago

“any added military industrial support from China would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for Ukraine-supporting states to match”
It’s almost as if outsourcing a huge chunk of the world’s heavy industry to a hostile totalitarian state was a bad idea.

Mark Goodhand
MG
Mark Goodhand
1 year ago

“any added military industrial support from China would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for Ukraine-supporting states to match”
It’s almost as if outsourcing a huge chunk of the world’s heavy industry to a hostile totalitarian state was a bad idea.

Mark Goodhand
MG
Mark Goodhand
1 year ago

“the US is in no position to point fingers at China-Russia relations” and that Beijing will “not accept coercion or pressure from the US”.

You can’t really fault the Chinese for this position.
The Americans aren’t supporting Ukraine because they care about the Ukrainian people, or because they consider national borders sacrosanct. They’re supporting them in an effort to advance their interests, and weaken rivals (not just Russia, but the EU and UK too).
If the Americans supply weapons to Ukraine to advance American interests, why shouldn’t the Chinese supply weapons to Russia if it advances Chinese interests?
This whole conflict could have been avoided if the Americans hadn’t meddled in 2014. I don’t want to see Russia win, but I do want to see the Americans lose, and stop interfering in European affairs.
The risk is that the Chinese come out on top; they’re the worst of the lot.

Mark Goodhand
MG
Mark Goodhand
1 year ago

“the US is in no position to point fingers at China-Russia relations” and that Beijing will “not accept coercion or pressure from the US”.

You can’t really fault the Chinese for this position.
The Americans aren’t supporting Ukraine because they care about the Ukrainian people, or because they consider national borders sacrosanct. They’re supporting them in an effort to advance their interests, and weaken rivals (not just Russia, but the EU and UK too).
If the Americans supply weapons to Ukraine to advance American interests, why shouldn’t the Chinese supply weapons to Russia if it advances Chinese interests?
This whole conflict could have been avoided if the Americans hadn’t meddled in 2014. I don’t want to see Russia win, but I do want to see the Americans lose, and stop interfering in European affairs.
The risk is that the Chinese come out on top; they’re the worst of the lot.

Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago

Odd that we in the United States seem bent on turning Russia and China into enemies.
Regarding Russia, we foment a bloody coup d’etat in Ukraine that overthrows a democratically elected president. We complain when Russia then annexes Crimea whose inhabitants want to join Russia by an overwhelming number and where Russia has had an important naval base since 1772, years before the US even existed. We squelch Donald Trump’s attempt to have a productive summit with Vladimir Putin in Helsinki.
Regarding China, we have said since Richard Nixon’s days that Taiwan is part of China, and we still say it. Yet we send our politicians to Taiwan to talk of its independence.
Both Russia and China are half a world away yet we meddle in their relations with countries that share a common border with them. We scorn their strength and lecture to them like wayward children.
Can’t we recognize that these countries have vital interests and still support Ukraine and Taiwan?

Noel Chiappa
NC
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

In the 1991 independence referendum, the Crimea voted to leave Russia (albeit by a small margin).
If a new, fair referendum were to change tack, I’d be OK with that. IMO they’d be crazy to throw themselves into Russia’s autocracy, but democracy means having to accept that sometimes people make bad choices.

Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

It is easy to oversimplify the history of Crimea, but in 2014 it was an autonomous republic with only weak ties to the rest of Ukraine. (Mainly a drain on the Ukraine treasury.)
Crimeans had voted overwhelmingly for the pro-Russian president that was deposed in the 2014 bloody coup d’etat. The Russians didn’t take Crimea by force in 2014 — a strong majority in Crimea were willing.
A poll in Crimea by a western polling group a few years before Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine found that only 2% of Crimeans wanted to rejoin Ukraine. It’s not hard to understand why. Russia is a poor country by our standards. It’s not poor compared to Ukraine, which is the poorest country in Europe.
The war in Ukraine that has been going on for 9 years now can almost be considered a civil war. Of all of Ukraine, Crimea has always been the most Russian. Donetsk and Luhansk were never legally autonomous (although in practice, at times they largely were). It’s not surprising to me that Crimea left Ukraine after its coup d’etat and joined Russia. I would have been more surprised if they had not.
That said, I agree that in this war Ukraine is the good guy and Russia the bad. But Ukraine is not as good as it’s made out to be, nor Russia as bad.

Last edited 1 year ago by Carlos Danger
Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

The difference is that Putin could easily have called for a real, internationally supervised referendum, as with Slovakia and Scotland.
Indeed, since Crimea was the poorest province in Ukraine, many in Kyiv would have said “good riddance.”
Not now, though.
Putin had to make it into a Frozen Conflict. So he outsmarted himself, as he did with the 2022 invasion itself.

Last edited 1 year ago by Martin Logan
Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

The 2014 referendum in Crimea WAS internationally supervised.

Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

The 2014 referendum in Crimea WAS internationally supervised.

Jürg Gassmann
JG
Jürg Gassmann
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

Also, in 1991, before the Ukraine declared its independence, Crimea declared its independence; this was not recognised by Ukraine, and Ukraine in a bloody coup in 1995 removed the Crimean authorities and annexed Crimea.

Martin Logan
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

The difference is that Putin could easily have called for a real, internationally supervised referendum, as with Slovakia and Scotland.
Indeed, since Crimea was the poorest province in Ukraine, many in Kyiv would have said “good riddance.”
Not now, though.
Putin had to make it into a Frozen Conflict. So he outsmarted himself, as he did with the 2022 invasion itself.

Last edited 1 year ago by Martin Logan
Jürg Gassmann
JG
Jürg Gassmann
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

Also, in 1991, before the Ukraine declared its independence, Crimea declared its independence; this was not recognised by Ukraine, and Ukraine in a bloody coup in 1995 removed the Crimean authorities and annexed Crimea.

Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

I appreciate that Russia is an autocratic state, and I sure wouldn’t want to live there. However, it’s not as if Ukraine were the poster child for western democratic government. Ukraine is and was one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and Ukraine is every bit as autocratic under Zelinski as Russia is under Putin. Both are equally bad.

Last edited 1 year ago by Johann Strauss
Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

It is easy to oversimplify the history of Crimea, but in 2014 it was an autonomous republic with only weak ties to the rest of Ukraine. (Mainly a drain on the Ukraine treasury.)
Crimeans had voted overwhelmingly for the pro-Russian president that was deposed in the 2014 bloody coup d’etat. The Russians didn’t take Crimea by force in 2014 — a strong majority in Crimea were willing.
A poll in Crimea by a western polling group a few years before Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine found that only 2% of Crimeans wanted to rejoin Ukraine. It’s not hard to understand why. Russia is a poor country by our standards. It’s not poor compared to Ukraine, which is the poorest country in Europe.
The war in Ukraine that has been going on for 9 years now can almost be considered a civil war. Of all of Ukraine, Crimea has always been the most Russian. Donetsk and Luhansk were never legally autonomous (although in practice, at times they largely were). It’s not surprising to me that Crimea left Ukraine after its coup d’etat and joined Russia. I would have been more surprised if they had not.
That said, I agree that in this war Ukraine is the good guy and Russia the bad. But Ukraine is not as good as it’s made out to be, nor Russia as bad.

Last edited 1 year ago by Carlos Danger
Johann Strauss
JS
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

I appreciate that Russia is an autocratic state, and I sure wouldn’t want to live there. However, it’s not as if Ukraine were the poster child for western democratic government. Ukraine is and was one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and Ukraine is every bit as autocratic under Zelinski as Russia is under Putin. Both are equally bad.

Last edited 1 year ago by Johann Strauss
Snapper AG
AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

The US can’t be in the business of selling out democracies to brutal tyrannies. Putin’s regime and the CCP are pure evil. Do you need reminding that China has millions of Uighars in concentration camps, and murders political prisoners in order to sell their organs? We should recognize the vital interests of the Russian and Chinese people that these regimes cease to exist ASAP.

Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Pure evil? I disagree. These regimes have their faults, certainly, but they have their strengths as well. The US should think twice about meddling in the internal politics of these countries. Three times, even. It’s not a good idea.
Why? The Russian and Chinese people support their own regimes. Vladimir Putin is quite popular in Russia, as reflected both in voting and in polls. China is not as democratic as Russia, so it’s harder to tell, but Xi Jinping seems popular at home as well. Both men are clearly more popular than Joe Biden in the US.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

If Putin is so popular, why is nobody in Moscow or St P joining his army?

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

If Putin is so popular, why is nobody in Moscow or St P joining his army?

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Do you honestly believe this twaddle? What about Armenia, a democracy being threatened right now? The Americans aren’t doing anything there.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

So the criticism is:
–“The US intervenes much too often!”
And
–“Why doesn’t the US intervene in ARMENIA??”
Fact is, “it’s the War, stupid.”
Russia had actually done some good in Nagorno-Karabakh. But now that Putin needs every soldier, Azerbaijan sees its chance.
Armenia will lose it, because of Putin.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

So it’s Putin’s job to save democracy then? I don’t think the U.S. should be out there saving the world from every threat. I’m simply pushing back against the narrative that the U.S. is some great protector of democracy.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

So it’s Putin’s job to save democracy then? I don’t think the U.S. should be out there saving the world from every threat. I’m simply pushing back against the narrative that the U.S. is some great protector of democracy.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

So the criticism is:
–“The US intervenes much too often!”
And
–“Why doesn’t the US intervene in ARMENIA??”
Fact is, “it’s the War, stupid.”
Russia had actually done some good in Nagorno-Karabakh. But now that Putin needs every soldier, Azerbaijan sees its chance.
Armenia will lose it, because of Putin.

Carlos Danger
CD
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Pure evil? I disagree. These regimes have their faults, certainly, but they have their strengths as well. The US should think twice about meddling in the internal politics of these countries. Three times, even. It’s not a good idea.
Why? The Russian and Chinese people support their own regimes. Vladimir Putin is quite popular in Russia, as reflected both in voting and in polls. China is not as democratic as Russia, so it’s harder to tell, but Xi Jinping seems popular at home as well. Both men are clearly more popular than Joe Biden in the US.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Do you honestly believe this twaddle? What about Armenia, a democracy being threatened right now? The Americans aren’t doing anything there.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

In the 1991 independence referendum, the Crimea voted to leave Russia (albeit by a small margin).
If a new, fair referendum were to change tack, I’d be OK with that. IMO they’d be crazy to throw themselves into Russia’s autocracy, but democracy means having to accept that sometimes people make bad choices.

Snapper AG
AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

The US can’t be in the business of selling out democracies to brutal tyrannies. Putin’s regime and the CCP are pure evil. Do you need reminding that China has millions of Uighars in concentration camps, and murders political prisoners in order to sell their organs? We should recognize the vital interests of the Russian and Chinese people that these regimes cease to exist ASAP.

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
1 year ago

Odd that we in the United States seem bent on turning Russia and China into enemies.
Regarding Russia, we foment a bloody coup d’etat in Ukraine that overthrows a democratically elected president. We complain when Russia then annexes Crimea whose inhabitants want to join Russia by an overwhelming number and where Russia has had an important naval base since 1772, years before the US even existed. We squelch Donald Trump’s attempt to have a productive summit with Vladimir Putin in Helsinki.
Regarding China, we have said since Richard Nixon’s days that Taiwan is part of China, and we still say it. Yet we send our politicians to Taiwan to talk of its independence.
Both Russia and China are half a world away yet we meddle in their relations with countries that share a common border with them. We scorn their strength and lecture to them like wayward children.
Can’t we recognize that these countries have vital interests and still support Ukraine and Taiwan?

Bruce Edgar
BE
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago

A “geopolitical confrontation against the West” is much to be desired. Why? Just take a look at what the west truly stands–and has stood for. Let us all hope that the idea of a multi polar world takes hold everywhere. So many will be liberated and free to choose their path without interference (Cuba, central America and Venezuela come immediately to mind. Let a thousand flowers boom: this is the only way around the intransigent West, and its purely selfish dominion over, and abuse of, many others.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

That’s quite strong. I don’t think China and Russia have perfect track records either. I don’t think they are necessarily interested in liberating or freeing other nations either tbh.
Multi polar world probably means broken and changing supply chains, conflict, instability…

Bruce Edgar
BE
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I am not entirely sure about the unruly outcome you describe. Yet our species is resilient, and I suspect, as we approach the mountain, a path will indeed open up.
I am speaking as an American, a good citizen, who has seen this country self destruct ever since Viet Nam, which I lived through, and perhaps long before that event which occurred during my life. As a citizen I devoutly wish for our imperial shenanigans to come to an end. This will benefit us quite immediately: not enrich us to be sure, but help us to re-orient our values and leadership toward a better world. I know that many who have been abused by western empires–those very empires now posturing righteously about democracy and the rule of law–will be thrilled. Not by America’s death, but its having its wings clipped, and by the diminution its capacity for evil and selfishness. A thirs still unslaked. As for Europe, I say let the Devil take the hindmost.

Last edited 1 year ago by Bruce Edgar
B Emery
BE
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

What a cheery fellow.
Well I’m British.
I’m not quite sure I see it like that, I don’t like your big crazy government doing big crazy unpredictable stuff more than anything, I think if you just all calmed down a bit that might help. I also think they could calm down in the East a bit too.
As for poor Europe we are stuck in the middle of all of you thank you very much, I think most of us would be quite pleased if you all calmed down.
Unlikely I’m afraid.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

A genuine Isolationist Opinion, which was certainly popular in 1940.

B Emery
BE
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

What a cheery fellow.
Well I’m British.
I’m not quite sure I see it like that, I don’t like your big crazy government doing big crazy unpredictable stuff more than anything, I think if you just all calmed down a bit that might help. I also think they could calm down in the East a bit too.
As for poor Europe we are stuck in the middle of all of you thank you very much, I think most of us would be quite pleased if you all calmed down.
Unlikely I’m afraid.

Martin Logan
ML
Martin Logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

A genuine Isolationist Opinion, which was certainly popular in 1940.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I am not entirely sure about the unruly outcome you describe. Yet our species is resilient, and I suspect, as we approach the mountain, a path will indeed open up.
I am speaking as an American, a good citizen, who has seen this country self destruct ever since Viet Nam, which I lived through, and perhaps long before that event which occurred during my life. As a citizen I devoutly wish for our imperial shenanigans to come to an end. This will benefit us quite immediately: not enrich us to be sure, but help us to re-orient our values and leadership toward a better world. I know that many who have been abused by western empires–those very empires now posturing righteously about democracy and the rule of law–will be thrilled. Not by America’s death, but its having its wings clipped, and by the diminution its capacity for evil and selfishness. A thirs still unslaked. As for Europe, I say let the Devil take the hindmost.

Last edited 1 year ago by Bruce Edgar
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

That’s quite strong. I don’t think China and Russia have perfect track records either. I don’t think they are necessarily interested in liberating or freeing other nations either tbh.
Multi polar world probably means broken and changing supply chains, conflict, instability…

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago

A “geopolitical confrontation against the West” is much to be desired. Why? Just take a look at what the west truly stands–and has stood for. Let us all hope that the idea of a multi polar world takes hold everywhere. So many will be liberated and free to choose their path without interference (Cuba, central America and Venezuela come immediately to mind. Let a thousand flowers boom: this is the only way around the intransigent West, and its purely selfish dominion over, and abuse of, many others.

j watson
JW
j watson
1 year ago

Yep we’re in Cold War II and if anything China showing it’s hand in siding with Putin just helps us all recover quicker from our slumber.
Of course China will fleece Russia in the process. Not always been easy bed fellows and where we can we should stir that pot in exactly the way they both have sought and daily continue to seek division within the West.

j watson
JW
j watson
1 year ago

Yep we’re in Cold War II and if anything China showing it’s hand in siding with Putin just helps us all recover quicker from our slumber.
Of course China will fleece Russia in the process. Not always been easy bed fellows and where we can we should stir that pot in exactly the way they both have sought and daily continue to seek division within the West.

david spence
DS
david spence
1 year ago

This article ignores the Russian paranoia about its shared border with China and Chinese desires for Lake Baikal.

david spence
david spence
1 year ago

Maybe the Chinese seek a deal for Lake Baikal in return for support.

chris Barton
CB
chris Barton
1 year ago

China is using the Russians for natural resources in the same way the Americans are using Ukrainian men as cannon fodder to bleed the Russians of men and weapons.

chris Barton
chris Barton
1 year ago

China is using the Russians for natural resources in the same way the Americans are using Ukrainian men as cannon fodder to bleed the Russians of men and weapons.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Zelensky was, as usual, super smart to welcome the China initiative.

Beijing doubtless expected a complete refusal, enabling China to claim that “they had tried.”

They’ll end up supplying Russia. But this slows it down.

Poor Putin!

Zero gains and a friend that just won’t fully support him.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Zelensky was, as usual, super smart to welcome the China initiative.

Beijing doubtless expected a complete refusal, enabling China to claim that “they had tried.”

They’ll end up supplying Russia. But this slows it down.

Poor Putin!

Zero gains and a friend that just won’t fully support him.