Vivek Ramaswamy sat down this week for a freewheeling conversation with Mark Cuban, the liberal billionaire who’s been defending DEI on X over the past year. Cuban remained steadfast in his belief that DEI merely expands the pool of applicants and does not involve a race-based lowering of meritocratic standards. He also insisted that “wokeness” is not a major issue in the US.

Cuban said he had been a Trump supporter in 2015, but changed his mind upon learning more about his alleged lack of scruples. The two sparred over RussiaGate and Hunter Biden, attempting to persuade the other to join their own political side. “I think I may have gotten him to vote for Kamala Harris”, Cuban teased on X. Spoiler alert: he didn’t.