I’ve read plenty of critical accounts of Antifa and the like, do you demand those writers also write about groups like the Proud Boys in the interests of balance? Or are you merely upset that this particular article paints your preferred side in a bad light?
So do you think Andy Ngo should also write a book about the Proud Boys? Or like me are you capable of reading articles critical of groups without having a tantrum that it doesn’t also devote an equal amount of space to criticising their political opponents?
If Labour or the Tories/Democrats or Republicans do something stupid then criticising them on their own is perfectly valid. You shouldn’t also have to write a critical piece of the opposition just to balance it up, and I think those that essentially demand that happens are quite pathetic
As I said, I agree with the thrust of your comment.
I don’t think you would disagree that MSM are overwhelmingly left leaning. I therefore can also have some sympathy for the irritation felt at yet another example of one sided commentary.
If there’s lots out there as a counterweight I haven’t seen it.
Many of the comments on here, dismissed as whataboutery, are just a complaint against imbalance in the reportage, almost independent of the subject matter. It’s not a good way to address the subject matter, but understandable.
I have no objection to the Proud Boys being portrayed with condescension and contempt, they are clearly deserving of both. But the article also mentions their opposite extreme, which doesn’t get quite the same tone. It’s noticeable and not pathetic to point it out.
I agree too many journalists lean to a middle class leftist outlook, which is unfortunately a product of the decline of local newspapers, and certain papers have become tribal mouthpieces rather than unbiased news sources.
However I don’t think that’s an accusation that can be levelled at this author or this site in general, and I just find it tiresome reading numerous comments bleating “yeah, what about such and such” every time there’s an article critical of their preferred side
Billy Bob Dbag, please read the MANY reports on antifa by Nancy Rommelman, a life-long liberal who reported from the front with antifa. It will wake you up. Those are the real threat to democracy. Not a bunch of unarmed frat boys and biker wannabes. https://reason.com/2020/07/23/dispatch-from-portland-the-fire-next-time/
22 years for his part in a riot that he wasn’t even present at.
Sorry, that’s not a criminal conviction. He’s a political prisoner.
Hooligan, thug or otherwise, the legal system and the uses to which it is being put are a bigger threat to your safety, liberty and wellbeing than he ever was.
Putin’s not present in Ukraine. So what is your argument? This guy directed the entire operation, remotely (like Putin). Under his direction, his troops were threatening extreme violence and death towards the Vice President and House Speaker. Twenty-two years, for leading an attempted coup d’etat, seems positively lenient to me. The only two people more senior to him in this conspiracy were the nefarious Steve Bannon and the Cashed-Up-Bogan-in-Chief himself.
Oh. Can I just say that it was likely, then, the most stupid insurrection of all time? Where gun owners forgot their guns? They forgot to bring the weapons. For the insurrection.
“22 years for his part in a riot that he wasn’t even present at.”
Do you people have any understanding of how these things work? Or are you really this stupid?
For the benefit of American readers who may not be familiar with him, Ian Birrell thinks the sun shines out of Tony Blair’s @rse. Don’t take him seriously.
I don’t suppose Amnesty International will be taking the case
RC
rupert carnegie
7 months ago
Has anyone seen a plausible and realistic reconstruction of what really happened on Jan 6?
I think the Democrats have made a fair case that Trump wound up the crowd, that the Proud Boys etc engaged in a premeditated invasion of the capital, that the Secret Service was behaving in curious ways and that there were assorted eccentric mid level Trumpites talking wildly in various Washington hotels etc etc.
But, so far as I know, they have failed to produce a coherent narrative about the inner working of the “insurgency” and, in particular, what exactly the plan was and what precisely Trump knew and when. His attempt to walk to the Capitol (blocked by the Secret Service) seems perhaps inconsistent with foreknowledge of the invasion. Perhaps. And then there are the peculiarities in the behaviour of some other players e.g. the failure to have enough police to defend the Capital despite the intelligence. At present it does not make much sense.
I suspect conspiracy theorists are going to be spinning in circles on this one for years. But maybe someone out there understands what was really happening in Washington on that day. My hunch is that there were several groups – on both sides of the aisle – with different agendas and that (possibly) Trump did not know in advance of what the Proud Boys had planned – but that is no more than a hunch.
All I think one can say with any confidence at this point is that if Jan 6 was an attempted coup, the average West African general would consider it comically and embarrassingly inept.
One fact that IS crystal clear is that only one person was actually murdered on the day, and that was a white woman, one Ms Ashli Babbitt.
She was shot and killed at point blank range, and in ‘cold blood’ by Lieutenant Michael Byrd*of the Capitol Police.
He was subsequently decorated for his ‘courageous action’. ‘God Bless America’.
True. But I am still puzzled by the big picture. Do you have a theory? One can concoct lots of different scenarios but I just don’t buy the version being spun by the Democrats i.e. monolithic plot led by Trump. It has to be more complicated.
A poorly policed shambles that got out of hand. Any meaning and rhetoric to describe what happened was added after the event to try and fit a predetermined narrative rather than being an in depth look at what actually took place
Deliberately poorly policed. Nancy Pelosi refused the offer of National Guard protection, the capitol police literally opened the doors and allowed the protesters in, the FBI had numerous operatives in the crowd to serve as agitators, the police threw smoke bombs to rile things up and cause panic so the cameras could get dramatic footage …
Groups protest at the Capitol all the time, but in this case, the Swamp decided to create a wag-the-dog event to punish Trump supporters and use it to prevent Trump from running again.
Like you I find it odd. While one should never underestimate the ability of people to do dumb things for all sorts of reasons, it does feel like some may have known what was likely to happen but did not act to prevent it since a debacle suited their own purposes.
From what I’ve read the standard of police training is a long way behind that of most civilised countries. It essentially boils down to giving them a gun and making them watch repeats of Starsky and Hutch
I agree it is a ridiculous exaggeration from start to finish. Call that a riot! No more than ‘a storm in a teacup’. If they want a riot they should look to the Newtonards Rd or Falls Rd.
However it does look as if there is such a visceral hatred for Mr Trump that anything goes, which does not bode well for the future of American politics.
One might make a comparison with another reviled populist outsider, one Gaius Julius Caesar and recall how that ultimately played out for the ‘establishment’.
That is a very gloomy thought. JC, threatened by court cases, crossed the Rubicon with a far more intimidating collection than the Proud Boys. I think / hope Caesar was more of a monomaniacal megalomaniac than Trump. Relatively speaking. (Incidentally, left short message in temp facility. Can close).
The catalyst will be, if and when Mr Trump is convicted of a serious felony.
I suspect there are quite a few Timothy McVeigh’s out there, and many with the relevant military experience.
Given the poisonous rhetoric of all this, it may well lead to “Lock & Load” as they say.
If you weren’t such a foul mouthed ignoramus people might engage with you.
However that is obviously impossible, but do try to be more original.
RACIST is so terribly boring, can’t you do better that, boy?
ps Or is it girl or girl with wily, I’m never quite sure.
Sir Charles, this squid is paid to derail intelligent discourse. Your wry witticisms are wasted on it. I implore you to reserve your drollery for the worthy (wish I could cite a Roman wink and a nod, as you’re so brilliant at doing, but you out-class all of us).
Many thanks Allison, and of course you are correct, and I should ignore this cretin.
However having done so since its arrival, I decided that a little ‘sport’ was in order but shall on your sound advice return to ‘nihil facere’- do nothing !
You really are an annoying and stupid child, you know. I must have read hundreds of your snotty little posts. You have nothing at all to say. So do us all a favour and say nothing.
Got it, so say an angry mob of Antifa are rampaging through the Trump White House in 2025 and attacking people inside, baying for Trump’s head. The crowd is about to enter the West Wing where Trump is holed up and Secret Service has told them to stop or they will shoot as they are at risk of getting overwhelmed by the numbers. They enter anyway. Should they just let them pass and do whatever they want on the other side?
These defenses of Ashli Babbitt are ridiculous. You’d be thrilled if Secret Service wiped out the entire Antifa mob in the reverse theoretical scenario.
Indeed, What a coup! Tanks…none. Helicopters….none. Takeover of the TV and radio stations… not.
Infiltrated by agent provocateurs (not lingerie wearing)…yes.
I was watching the whole thing on livestream. The maga lot were standing outside chanting. A police officer opened an entrance and a fairly small bunch of the protesters all went through into the building. They went into open offices and chambers and took photos of themselves. I didn’t even see any violence. By the following day the thing had been rebranded into a ‘riot’ and by the following week it was an ‘attack’. I was astounded at the media duplicity.
And then they sold it as an “insurrection”, and then “an attack on our democracy” and then “they were there to overthrow the government.” Kinda tough to initiate a coup when you’re an unarmed, pudgy, middle-aged woman strolling around carrying a flag and a cell phone.
There are so many bald-faced lies coming out of government via their CIA-infested media that absolutely nothing they say is true. Nothing.
They were chanting for “revolution” and “civil war” because they lost an election, calling for the lynching of the VP for not unconstitutionally overturning the election results, hunting for politicians with threats of violence, vandalizing the offices, chasing and assaulting police officers and forcing the disruption of the Constitutional transfer of power.
All I gotta say to you hypocrites is if it were Antifa doing the same thing, you’d be calling for their mass execution as traitors and begging for cops to open fire on them.
I was watching for like an hour and a half and saw absolutely none of that. It was just a bunch of bemused boomers surprised they’d been let into a glorified tourist attraction.
To be fair, there were windows broken and some damage to doors and desks. Not a lot. And skirmishes with the police, who withdrew and let them pass.
I saw much more violent protests during the Vietnam War. And, of course, all summer of 2020.
Obviously. That fat clown couldn’t walk that far if his life depended on it. And you think he would do anything that involved possible physical risk to himself?
The comparison with the football is a good one in my opinion. Knowing a few of them they still talk in the same way, as if they’re still 20 years old and a threat rather than an overweight 60 year old who’s terrified of his missus which is what he is these days. I think you’re right about simply not growing up. I agree the sentences seem rather draconian however, though the States does seem fond of handing out long stretches.
Interferring violently or otherwise with the transfer of power is treated particularly harshly – as with contempt of court, sedition or treason. Merely passing certain information to a national enemy may warrant head removal, even in most developed democracies.
He wasn’t even there. Oh ya, he orchestrated a coup, but everyone forgot to bring their guns.
MD
Michael Daniele
7 months ago
“His is the longest sentence so far related to the lethal attack that has seen more than 1,100 people charged.”
What an astonishing sentence! As mentioned elsewhere, the only death was the murder of Ashli Babbitt by a capitol police officer (who apparently will never face consequences). The BLM riots caused 100 times that.
YW
Y Way
7 months ago
The author forgets, at every description of violence, to describe who started the violence or mayhem. Why? Perhaps because the Proud Boys did not do it?
I am not a fan of ultra machismo groups, but nothing here shows this group instigated anything. I hate violence, but I also know that when someone is yelling, “Now you know how it feels” it usually indicates payback for something someone did first.
Why does the author not tell us what actually happened and instead paints a dark picture of a murky situation only implying fault?
This is horrible journalism. Moody and lacking in facts.
TD
Tyler Durden
7 months ago
The famous ‘Western chauvinists’, a slightly belated off-shoot of the alt-right, who provided a right-wing mirror to the violence of Antifa and BLM who burnt down countless American city neighbourhoods over the course of 2020.
While the POTUS was in the White House bunker being protected by special security of whom a great many sustained injures from the Washington rioters in August 2020, it was Jan 6 2021 that the world’s media then ‘celebrated’ for 18 months under instruction from their Democrat paymasters.
MG
Mark Goodhand
7 months ago
“Trump’s false claims about a stolen election”
This is dishonest reporting.
We don’t know the claims are false. We only know that they are (so far) unproven.
Any election that involves voting machines should be automatically assumed to involve large amounts of fraud.
Whether fraud tipped the balance in the last presidential election is difficult, if not impossible to establish, but it’s certainly not an absurd suggestion.
And your good self boy? Aren’t you “full of it”?
It certainly appears so.
BV
Brian Villanueva
7 months ago
The entire idea that there was a “general coordinating the Jan 6 attack” is pretty absurd. It looked remarkably uncoordinated to me. Also, for a charge of “seditious conspiracy”, shouldn’t there be someone who was actually convicted of sedition?
I’m not saying Tarrio is a good guy, but any honest comparison of how BLM / Antifa rioters of 2020 vs J6 rioters of 2021have been treated / charged is pretty revealing.
When Trump says, “they’re coming after me but they really want to destroy you”, his statement resonates because his supporters see this disparate treatment by the press, the prosecutors, the judges. They’ve seen an all-of-society attempt to destroy this one man for 7 years, which has tarred his voters (them) many times along the way, and caused them to lose faith in most institutions.
MB
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
7 months ago
The thing I got from this was that he wasn’t at the riot and they used some obscure law from the civil war, generally a time when legal niceties are bypassed. I’m generally not following the trials but that’s pretty shocking
I had to stop reading at the part where the author didn’t call out a man being given 22 years in prison for something he wasn’t even present for. You’re a mad man.
I got further than that, but I seriously thought of giving up at the point where we were told the beaten middle aged black woman we were supposed to feel sorry for in the opening paragraphs was actually an Antifa member.
So not some innocent bystander, but part of a grotesquely fascistic organisation that fully supports the extreme political violence she was a victim of. Poor her.
BD
Bryan Dale
7 months ago
Challenging a rigged election is narcism, but when Democrats challenge an election because they’re shocked their ballot stuffing didn’t work, that’s ok.
SM
si mclardy
7 months ago
Let’s hope all provocateurs spend as much time in jail. I’m thinking of George w bush, Obama, Biden. How many millions have died at their behest?
LM
laura m
7 months ago
Ya lost me at the sub-machine guns claim. I prefer to read reliable reporters of the Jan 6 protest such as Julie Kelly.
CH
Charles Hedges
7 months ago
What the Republicans and Trump appear not to perceive is that Cultural Marxism created by The Frankfurt School in 1919 is an ideology. One can only defeat an ideology through an argument which points out it’s faults and put forward an alternative ideology. One aspect needed to defeat Cultural Marxism is to understand why it is so attractive to middle class, largely humanities graduates and not to working class blue collar people brought up in the Methodist/Baptist traditions? Marxism is attractive to Jesuits, hence Liberation Theology , why?
What is astonishing is that the wealthiest country in the World which has not known war on it’s territory for 150 years is incapable of producing the Renaissance Man; someone who is , soldier, scholar, poet, musician, artist and architect but produces Antifa and Proud Boys.
Florence produced Battisti, the USA, Antifa and Proud Boys. Leon Battista Alberti – Wikipedia
Raphael born in Urbino spent most of his rather short but very productive life in Rome.
Leonardo likewise spent more time in Milan and Rome than Florence.
Michelangelo at least born in Florence, again spent more time time where the money was, Rome!
Off course none of then in any way could solve the ‘chaos’ which was Renaissance Italy.
Only Charles V and his disciplined Tercios could do that.
Last edited 7 months ago by Charles Stanhope
AH
andrew harman
7 months ago
I very rarely post on here now although I still read a number of the comments on various articles. I certainly have little affinity with many of those who post: MAGA sorts; conspiracy theorists; Brexit zealots and the like. I am much more in sympathy with the covid (or covid measures) scepticism I encounter here, as well as the Starmer scepticism. I am no leftist / socialist and I dislike the mainstream media which I think disgraced itself during the pandemic (and it was NOT a scamdemic, it was real but the reaction to it exceeded all reason and good sense).
However, there is one poster, very in evidence on this thread who contributes nothing to any debate. All they do is indulge in ad hominem arguments, or the genetic fallacy and often utter stupidity.
Debate and disagreements are always going to happen so why don’t they actually offer something constructive and reasoned rather than schoolyard taunts. I can only assume they are incapable of actually constructing an argument or engaging in reasoned, adult debate and would prefer to name call. Well, I have news for this person: you are not clever, not witty – in fact you are a dreadful, stupid bore.
Yes “Champagne Socialist” (absurd user name) I am talking about you. Grow up or go away.
Last edited 7 months ago by andrew harman
JH
joe hardy
7 months ago
OMG the misogyny!
CM
Cantab Man
7 months ago
Regardless of whether a hooligan hitches themselves to the veneer of Right or Left causes, they are not – and will never be – justified when they use such causes as a faux-rationale for their acts of pain or destruction. As the article suggests, they primarily look to satisfy their own twisted definition of ‘fun’ and their tribal acts are the antithesis of an evolved civilization.
The children of Adam are members of a whole
In creation, of one essence and of one soul
If one body part is afflicted with pain,
Other body parts uneasy shall remain.
If you lack empathy for a soul’s despair or pain
The name of human you cannot in worthiness claim.
– Saadi (1258 CE)
The hooligans stand condemned, but I also blame various politicians when they unilaterally decided to stop enforcing law and order a few years ago. They created – on purpose – a power vacuum for such groups of hooligans to fulfill their bloody desires in the streets and neighborhoods.
It’s evolutionary evident that some percentage of narcissistic hooligans will walk among us for the foreseeable future. And it is up to our government leaders to assert the equal application of law and order for everyone so the hooligans’ remain shackled within the set parameters of our socially agreed-upon civilization.
Last edited 7 months ago by Cantab Man
JM
Jimjim McHale
7 months ago
It wasn’t an insurrection planned by Conservatives. It was all planned and set up on the inside. We all know it. Not a weapon to be found on any of them, but the capital police killed an innocent woman who was invited in by them. They were basically invited in by the Capital Police. Nothing that anyone says can change the facts. Where was the National Guard that was requested by Donal Trump and other Conservatives. Turned down by Nancy P. and her minions. Afterward, Nancy puts a fence around the Capital to show how afraid she was. Nonsense.
Off the subject, but the OPEN BORDER OF THE USA is a bigger problem! A crucial crisis.
Last edited 7 months ago by Jimjim McHale
CS
Champagne Socialist
7 months ago
Bunch of incel losers do a cosplay coup and pay the price.
CS
Champagne Socialist
7 months ago
Just because they are bad at sedition doesn’t mean they didn’t try to do it.
Throw away the key.
Grow up boy! You’re a fantasist and probably always will be.
JW
j watson
7 months ago
Not the first and not the last who’ll end up sporting the orange jumpsuit for an extended period due to buying into Agent Orange’s baloney and criminality.
The Proud Boys always were inadequate, pathetic Sad Boys. Like 99% of men who join some form of extreme or terrorist organisation/affiliation. It’s displacement activity for the unthinking.
Had they been Black and invaded Congress they’d have been hozed down by the Police and National Guard, so they can count their lucky stars they had allies in high place at least on that day.
Their sentences do seem much more harsh than anything that’s been dished out to those who took part during the BLM riots though, so I’d wager it’s actually those groups rather than idiots like the Proud Boys who have friends in high places
The average sentence for BLM riots 2020 was 2 years (120 convictions). The average for Jan 6 is 120 days (1100 convictions). A plannned attack on the government is taken as more serious than a street riot, for some reason.
“A planned attack on the government”!!!!
Come off if! It was a complete farce.
When than attack does come God help you, for as history has shown, it will be ‘sine missione’ – without mercy.
I know it’s shocking Charles, but it was. A stoopid one perhaps, but with the express, declared intent of distrupting the peaceful transfer of power – by some. Stupidity is not an excuse in the eyes of the law (unless to the extent, perhaps of profound mental retardation). If you try to rob a bank with a banana under your jacket, and writing a stick-up note on the bank of your mother’s chequebook, you still get the time – but you know this already……
Would you be thinking the same way if a leftist mob had stormed into the Buckingham Palace to prevent Johnson being appointed? Whist not claiming super-powers, I am as sure as damn-it that we both know the answer already. I’m just wondering why you are prentending otherwise.
Court Marshall for all officers and NCOs.
The actions of the Proud Boys must be manna from heaven for the Democrats.
If Trump was so worried about the election why did he not make sure officials were at the counts? Trump appears to believe he will be believed even if he does not produce evidence.
If Trump was so concerned why has he allowed himself and his supporters to be manipulated? In this political game of chess it is vital that Trump makes the move least wanted by The Democrats, not the most wanted.
Trump like Johnson appears incapable of maintaining loyalty of those around him whereas Obama has this skill.
The Democrats realise Trump and The Proud Boys lack discernment, sagacity and self- control and therefore are able to manipulate them in doing that which undermines their cause and helps them.
I am sorry but we will have to disagree over this!
Incidentally Buckingham Palace whilst not invulnerable to solo intruders, could probably repel a bunch of weirdos, such as blundered into the Capitol Building.
Also I very much doubt our Metropolitan Police would have shot an unarmed possibly hysterical woman at point blank range. In the very unlikely event they had done so they would have faced the full force of the Law, and NOT been given a medal.
I agree the Met would very probably not have shot (although….de Menezes) – this is not because they are better police, but because are, quite literally, millions of guns in the the USA, and the police are rightfully on edge. Back to the other point – several hundred people have now been convicted, in American courts, of taking part in an insurrection – judges and juries have poured over the evidence for millions of man hours – you know better than they?
200 curfews, 96,000 National Guards deployed, 14,000 arrests – they made quite an effort. 93% of the 7,700 protest remained peaceful (about half of Americans think that most were violent). If there is inconsistency in the police/legal repurcussions, I suspect it may be down to the incendiary nature of the Floyd situation (20,000,000 people protesting racial police violence, watched by the World, with similar protests in many other coutnries in Europe, Asia, Africa); the fact that many in the Jan 6 riot, attacked/invaded/looted Congress to protest/prevent election results from being carried through (an insurrection/treason attempt however incompetent); and that Jan 6 was a highly organised event at the heart of government where cameras cover every inch of land.
Jan 6 – 1,100 people charged. 629 pleaded guilty, about 500 sentences, 100s still awaiting trial. You say this is evidence of inconsistent treatment, I say it’s due to the especial seriousness of treason/attacks on the centre of the system (a long established tradition – one example: taking photos or shouting can get a year in prison…..if done in a law court), and the very real-politic need to go carefully where racial aspects of policing in the US are concerned.
“Had they been Black and invaded Congress they’d have been hozed down by the Police and National Guard,”
Of course they wouldn’t. They’d have been welcomed with open arms. (btw: the dictionary is your friend. Get one).
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Great. Now do a similar hit piece on AntiFa, Black Lives Matter, and Extinction Rebellion. Because justice.
I’ve read plenty of critical accounts of Antifa and the like, do you demand those writers also write about groups like the Proud Boys in the interests of balance? Or are you merely upset that this particular article paints your preferred side in a bad light?
I agree with the thrust of your comment but ask the genuine question, where have you read critical accounts of Antifa?
I’ve read Andy Ngo’s book. If I hadn’t I’d be largely unaware of them. I’ve certainly never read an ‘anti’ piece as lop sided as this.
So do you think Andy Ngo should also write a book about the Proud Boys? Or like me are you capable of reading articles critical of groups without having a tantrum that it doesn’t also devote an equal amount of space to criticising their political opponents?
If Labour or the Tories/Democrats or Republicans do something stupid then criticising them on their own is perfectly valid. You shouldn’t also have to write a critical piece of the opposition just to balance it up, and I think those that essentially demand that happens are quite pathetic
As I said, I agree with the thrust of your comment.
I don’t think you would disagree that MSM are overwhelmingly left leaning. I therefore can also have some sympathy for the irritation felt at yet another example of one sided commentary.
If there’s lots out there as a counterweight I haven’t seen it.
Many of the comments on here, dismissed as whataboutery, are just a complaint against imbalance in the reportage, almost independent of the subject matter. It’s not a good way to address the subject matter, but understandable.
I have no objection to the Proud Boys being portrayed with condescension and contempt, they are clearly deserving of both. But the article also mentions their opposite extreme, which doesn’t get quite the same tone. It’s noticeable and not pathetic to point it out.
I agree too many journalists lean to a middle class leftist outlook, which is unfortunately a product of the decline of local newspapers, and certain papers have become tribal mouthpieces rather than unbiased news sources.
However I don’t think that’s an accusation that can be levelled at this author or this site in general, and I just find it tiresome reading numerous comments bleating “yeah, what about such and such” every time there’s an article critical of their preferred side
Ian is definitely left liberal.
So everything he writes is to be dismissed?
What? You mean “good people on both sides”?? I’m afraid that your NAIVE CYNICISM is on full display… just like the Donald’s.
Billy Bob Dbag, please read the MANY reports on antifa by Nancy Rommelman, a life-long liberal who reported from the front with antifa. It will wake you up. Those are the real threat to democracy. Not a bunch of unarmed frat boys and biker wannabes.
https://reason.com/2020/07/23/dispatch-from-portland-the-fire-next-time/
You forgot the ADL
22 years for his part in a riot that he wasn’t even present at.
Sorry, that’s not a criminal conviction. He’s a political prisoner.
Hooligan, thug or otherwise, the legal system and the uses to which it is being put are a bigger threat to your safety, liberty and wellbeing than he ever was.
Putin’s not present in Ukraine. So what is your argument? This guy directed the entire operation, remotely (like Putin). Under his direction, his troops were threatening extreme violence and death towards the Vice President and House Speaker. Twenty-two years, for leading an attempted coup d’etat, seems positively lenient to me. The only two people more senior to him in this conspiracy were the nefarious Steve Bannon and the Cashed-Up-Bogan-in-Chief himself.
Oh. Can I just say that it was likely, then, the most stupid insurrection of all time? Where gun owners forgot their guns? They forgot to bring the weapons. For the insurrection.
Wow, he sounds like Che Guevara, Lenin and Mao all rolled into one. What a lot of bollix you do write!
You seem very agitated, Hughie. You got a crush on the Proud Boys?
“22 years for his part in a riot that he wasn’t even present at.”
Do you people have any understanding of how these things work? Or are you really this stupid?
What? As stupid as you boy? Impossible!
For the benefit of American readers who may not be familiar with him, Ian Birrell thinks the sun shines out of Tony Blair’s @rse. Don’t take him seriously.
I don’t suppose Amnesty International will be taking the case
Has anyone seen a plausible and realistic reconstruction of what really happened on Jan 6?
I think the Democrats have made a fair case that Trump wound up the crowd, that the Proud Boys etc engaged in a premeditated invasion of the capital, that the Secret Service was behaving in curious ways and that there were assorted eccentric mid level Trumpites talking wildly in various Washington hotels etc etc.
But, so far as I know, they have failed to produce a coherent narrative about the inner working of the “insurgency” and, in particular, what exactly the plan was and what precisely Trump knew and when. His attempt to walk to the Capitol (blocked by the Secret Service) seems perhaps inconsistent with foreknowledge of the invasion. Perhaps. And then there are the peculiarities in the behaviour of some other players e.g. the failure to have enough police to defend the Capital despite the intelligence. At present it does not make much sense.
I suspect conspiracy theorists are going to be spinning in circles on this one for years. But maybe someone out there understands what was really happening in Washington on that day. My hunch is that there were several groups – on both sides of the aisle – with different agendas and that (possibly) Trump did not know in advance of what the Proud Boys had planned – but that is no more than a hunch.
All I think one can say with any confidence at this point is that if Jan 6 was an attempted coup, the average West African general would consider it comically and embarrassingly inept.
Anyone got a better fix on this than me?
One fact that IS crystal clear is that only one person was actually murdered on the day, and that was a white woman, one Ms Ashli Babbitt.
She was shot and killed at point blank range, and in ‘cold blood’ by Lieutenant Michael Byrd*of the Capitol Police.
He was subsequently decorated for his ‘courageous action’. ‘God Bless America’.
(*Who happens to be black.)
True. But I am still puzzled by the big picture. Do you have a theory? One can concoct lots of different scenarios but I just don’t buy the version being spun by the Democrats i.e. monolithic plot led by Trump. It has to be more complicated.
A poorly policed shambles that got out of hand. Any meaning and rhetoric to describe what happened was added after the event to try and fit a predetermined narrative rather than being an in depth look at what actually took place
This exactly. After reading this article, does anyone seriously think this Terrio guy is leading a revolution.
Deliberately poorly policed. Nancy Pelosi refused the offer of National Guard protection, the capitol police literally opened the doors and allowed the protesters in, the FBI had numerous operatives in the crowd to serve as agitators, the police threw smoke bombs to rile things up and cause panic so the cameras could get dramatic footage …
Groups protest at the Capitol all the time, but in this case, the Swamp decided to create a wag-the-dog event to punish Trump supporters and use it to prevent Trump from running again.
Thank God ‘we’ did at least did burn the wretched place to the ground on the night of August 24th 1814!*
(* I am the proud owner of a few small items of plunder taken by a kinsman on that joyous occasion.)
As an American, I am outraged that you have not returned these looted items to the White House.
Vae Victis!
Looks like the American police are even more crap than ours in the UK – which is saying something.
It is indeed.
However at least most of ours don’t carry guns! (yet)
Like you I find it odd. While one should never underestimate the ability of people to do dumb things for all sorts of reasons, it does feel like some may have known what was likely to happen but did not act to prevent it since a debacle suited their own purposes.
“A poorly policed shambles” hardly describes shooting an unarmed while woman in the neck at point blank range with .40 Glock 22 does it?
Sounds like quite poor police work to me, though not uncommon in the States. The police seem to have a penchant for shooting the unarmed over there
I gather some are worse than others!
The Capitol Police are not exactly the crème de la crème.
From what I’ve read the standard of police training is a long way behind that of most civilised countries. It essentially boils down to giving them a gun and making them watch repeats of Starsky and Hutch
I agree it is a ridiculous exaggeration from start to finish. Call that a riot! No more than ‘a storm in a teacup’. If they want a riot they should look to the Newtonards Rd or Falls Rd.
However it does look as if there is such a visceral hatred for Mr Trump that anything goes, which does not bode well for the future of American politics.
One might make a comparison with another reviled populist outsider, one Gaius Julius Caesar and recall how that ultimately played out for the ‘establishment’.
That is a very gloomy thought. JC, threatened by court cases, crossed the Rubicon with a far more intimidating collection than the Proud Boys. I think / hope Caesar was more of a monomaniacal megalomaniac than Trump. Relatively speaking. (Incidentally, left short message in temp facility. Can close).
The catalyst will be, if and when Mr Trump is convicted of a serious felony.
I suspect there are quite a few Timothy McVeigh’s out there, and many with the relevant military experience.
Given the poisonous rhetoric of all this, it may well lead to “Lock & Load” as they say.
“One might make a comparison with another reviled populist outsider, one Gaius Julius Caesar”
This is very dumb even for you, Racist Grandpa
If you weren’t such a foul mouthed ignoramus people might engage with you.
However that is obviously impossible, but do try to be more original.
RACIST is so terribly boring, can’t you do better that, boy?
ps Or is it girl or girl with wily, I’m never quite sure.
Sir Charles, this squid is paid to derail intelligent discourse. Your wry witticisms are wasted on it. I implore you to reserve your drollery for the worthy (wish I could cite a Roman wink and a nod, as you’re so brilliant at doing, but you out-class all of us).
Many thanks Allison, and of course you are correct, and I should ignore this cretin.
However having done so since its arrival, I decided that a little ‘sport’ was in order but shall on your sound advice return to ‘nihil facere’- do nothing !
Racist grandpa back in action!
You really are an annoying and stupid child, you know. I must have read hundreds of your snotty little posts. You have nothing at all to say. So do us all a favour and say nothing.
It must really annoy you and your Proud Boy buddies to know that are being constantly bested by “an annoying and stupid child”! 🙂
Got it, so say an angry mob of Antifa are rampaging through the Trump White House in 2025 and attacking people inside, baying for Trump’s head. The crowd is about to enter the West Wing where Trump is holed up and Secret Service has told them to stop or they will shoot as they are at risk of getting overwhelmed by the numbers. They enter anyway. Should they just let them pass and do whatever they want on the other side?
These defenses of Ashli Babbitt are ridiculous. You’d be thrilled if Secret Service wiped out the entire Antifa mob in the reverse theoretical scenario.
Indeed, What a coup! Tanks…none. Helicopters….none. Takeover of the TV and radio stations… not.
Infiltrated by agent provocateurs (not lingerie wearing)…yes.
Guns, knives, truncheons… None.
Yeah, it was a frat party that turned into a mild riot.
I was watching the whole thing on livestream. The maga lot were standing outside chanting. A police officer opened an entrance and a fairly small bunch of the protesters all went through into the building. They went into open offices and chambers and took photos of themselves. I didn’t even see any violence. By the following day the thing had been rebranded into a ‘riot’ and by the following week it was an ‘attack’. I was astounded at the media duplicity.
And then they sold it as an “insurrection”, and then “an attack on our democracy” and then “they were there to overthrow the government.” Kinda tough to initiate a coup when you’re an unarmed, pudgy, middle-aged woman strolling around carrying a flag and a cell phone.
There are so many bald-faced lies coming out of government via their CIA-infested media that absolutely nothing they say is true. Nothing.
They were chanting for “revolution” and “civil war” because they lost an election, calling for the lynching of the VP for not unconstitutionally overturning the election results, hunting for politicians with threats of violence, vandalizing the offices, chasing and assaulting police officers and forcing the disruption of the Constitutional transfer of power.
All I gotta say to you hypocrites is if it were Antifa doing the same thing, you’d be calling for their mass execution as traitors and begging for cops to open fire on them.
I was watching for like an hour and a half and saw absolutely none of that. It was just a bunch of bemused boomers surprised they’d been let into a glorified tourist attraction.
To be fair, there were windows broken and some damage to doors and desks. Not a lot. And skirmishes with the police, who withdrew and let them pass.
I saw much more violent protests during the Vietnam War. And, of course, all summer of 2020.
Trump did not attempt to walk to the Capitol.
Are you sure about that?
Obviously. That fat clown couldn’t walk that far if his life depended on it. And you think he would do anything that involved possible physical risk to himself?
Would you, miserable little oik that you so obviously are! Well boy?
.
He sounds shockingly immature – stuff a 20 year old would be doing, not a 39 year old. Still, 22 years in prison is way over the top IMO.
The comparison with the football is a good one in my opinion. Knowing a few of them they still talk in the same way, as if they’re still 20 years old and a threat rather than an overweight 60 year old who’s terrified of his missus which is what he is these days. I think you’re right about simply not growing up. I agree the sentences seem rather draconian however, though the States does seem fond of handing out long stretches.
Interferring violently or otherwise with the transfer of power is treated particularly harshly – as with contempt of court, sedition or treason. Merely passing certain information to a national enemy may warrant head removal, even in most developed democracies.
He’s lucky he wasn’t executed, the prescribed penalty for treason. He got off easy.
He wasn’t even there. Oh ya, he orchestrated a coup, but everyone forgot to bring their guns.
“His is the longest sentence so far related to the lethal attack that has seen more than 1,100 people charged.”
What an astonishing sentence! As mentioned elsewhere, the only death was the murder of Ashli Babbitt by a capitol police officer (who apparently will never face consequences). The BLM riots caused 100 times that.
The author forgets, at every description of violence, to describe who started the violence or mayhem. Why? Perhaps because the Proud Boys did not do it?
I am not a fan of ultra machismo groups, but nothing here shows this group instigated anything. I hate violence, but I also know that when someone is yelling, “Now you know how it feels” it usually indicates payback for something someone did first.
Why does the author not tell us what actually happened and instead paints a dark picture of a murky situation only implying fault?
This is horrible journalism. Moody and lacking in facts.
The famous ‘Western chauvinists’, a slightly belated off-shoot of the alt-right, who provided a right-wing mirror to the violence of Antifa and BLM who burnt down countless American city neighbourhoods over the course of 2020.
While the POTUS was in the White House bunker being protected by special security of whom a great many sustained injures from the Washington rioters in August 2020, it was Jan 6 2021 that the world’s media then ‘celebrated’ for 18 months under instruction from their Democrat paymasters.
This is dishonest reporting.
We don’t know the claims are false. We only know that they are (so far) unproven.
Any election that involves voting machines should be automatically assumed to involve large amounts of fraud.
Whether fraud tipped the balance in the last presidential election is difficult, if not impossible to establish, but it’s certainly not an absurd suggestion.
How many times does Trump have to get laughed out of court before you start to realize that maybe he’s full of it?
And your good self boy? Aren’t you “full of it”?
It certainly appears so.
The entire idea that there was a “general coordinating the Jan 6 attack” is pretty absurd. It looked remarkably uncoordinated to me. Also, for a charge of “seditious conspiracy”, shouldn’t there be someone who was actually convicted of sedition?
I’m not saying Tarrio is a good guy, but any honest comparison of how BLM / Antifa rioters of 2020 vs J6 rioters of 2021have been treated / charged is pretty revealing.
When Trump says, “they’re coming after me but they really want to destroy you”, his statement resonates because his supporters see this disparate treatment by the press, the prosecutors, the judges. They’ve seen an all-of-society attempt to destroy this one man for 7 years, which has tarred his voters (them) many times along the way, and caused them to lose faith in most institutions.
The thing I got from this was that he wasn’t at the riot and they used some obscure law from the civil war, generally a time when legal niceties are bypassed. I’m generally not following the trials but that’s pretty shocking
Someone doesn’t know how conspiracy works!
Do you….boy?
I had to stop reading at the part where the author didn’t call out a man being given 22 years in prison for something he wasn’t even present for. You’re a mad man.
Are you people really this stupid?
Pipe down boy, you know nothing!
I got further than that, but I seriously thought of giving up at the point where we were told the beaten middle aged black woman we were supposed to feel sorry for in the opening paragraphs was actually an Antifa member.
So not some innocent bystander, but part of a grotesquely fascistic organisation that fully supports the extreme political violence she was a victim of. Poor her.
Challenging a rigged election is narcism, but when Democrats challenge an election because they’re shocked their ballot stuffing didn’t work, that’s ok.
Let’s hope all provocateurs spend as much time in jail. I’m thinking of George w bush, Obama, Biden. How many millions have died at their behest?
Ya lost me at the sub-machine guns claim. I prefer to read reliable reporters of the Jan 6 protest such as Julie Kelly.
What the Republicans and Trump appear not to perceive is that Cultural Marxism created by The Frankfurt School in 1919 is an ideology. One can only defeat an ideology through an argument which points out it’s faults and put forward an alternative ideology. One aspect needed to defeat Cultural Marxism is to understand why it is so attractive to middle class, largely humanities graduates and not to working class blue collar people brought up in the Methodist/Baptist traditions? Marxism is attractive to Jesuits, hence Liberation Theology , why?
What is astonishing is that the wealthiest country in the World which has not known war on it’s territory for 150 years is incapable of producing the Renaissance Man; someone who is , soldier, scholar, poet, musician, artist and architect but produces Antifa and Proud Boys.
Florence produced Battisti, the USA, Antifa and Proud Boys.
Leon Battista Alberti – Wikipedia
What about Thomas Jefferson?
One man two hundred and fifty years ago. In 1500 AD Florence, a city of perhaps 70,000 had Michelangelo, Raphael and da Vinci.
Raphael born in Urbino spent most of his rather short but very productive life in Rome.
Leonardo likewise spent more time in Milan and Rome than Florence.
Michelangelo at least born in Florence, again spent more time time where the money was, Rome!
Off course none of then in any way could solve the ‘chaos’ which was Renaissance Italy.
Only Charles V and his disciplined Tercios could do that.
I very rarely post on here now although I still read a number of the comments on various articles. I certainly have little affinity with many of those who post: MAGA sorts; conspiracy theorists; Brexit zealots and the like. I am much more in sympathy with the covid (or covid measures) scepticism I encounter here, as well as the Starmer scepticism. I am no leftist / socialist and I dislike the mainstream media which I think disgraced itself during the pandemic (and it was NOT a scamdemic, it was real but the reaction to it exceeded all reason and good sense).
However, there is one poster, very in evidence on this thread who contributes nothing to any debate. All they do is indulge in ad hominem arguments, or the genetic fallacy and often utter stupidity.
Debate and disagreements are always going to happen so why don’t they actually offer something constructive and reasoned rather than schoolyard taunts. I can only assume they are incapable of actually constructing an argument or engaging in reasoned, adult debate and would prefer to name call. Well, I have news for this person: you are not clever, not witty – in fact you are a dreadful, stupid bore.
Yes “Champagne Socialist” (absurd user name) I am talking about you. Grow up or go away.
OMG the misogyny!
Regardless of whether a hooligan hitches themselves to the veneer of Right or Left causes, they are not – and will never be – justified when they use such causes as a faux-rationale for their acts of pain or destruction. As the article suggests, they primarily look to satisfy their own twisted definition of ‘fun’ and their tribal acts are the antithesis of an evolved civilization.
The children of Adam are members of a whole
In creation, of one essence and of one soul
If one body part is afflicted with pain,
Other body parts uneasy shall remain.
If you lack empathy for a soul’s despair or pain
The name of human you cannot in worthiness claim.
– Saadi (1258 CE)
The hooligans stand condemned, but I also blame various politicians when they unilaterally decided to stop enforcing law and order a few years ago. They created – on purpose – a power vacuum for such groups of hooligans to fulfill their bloody desires in the streets and neighborhoods.
It’s evolutionary evident that some percentage of narcissistic hooligans will walk among us for the foreseeable future. And it is up to our government leaders to assert the equal application of law and order for everyone so the hooligans’ remain shackled within the set parameters of our socially agreed-upon civilization.
It wasn’t an insurrection planned by Conservatives. It was all planned and set up on the inside. We all know it. Not a weapon to be found on any of them, but the capital police killed an innocent woman who was invited in by them. They were basically invited in by the Capital Police. Nothing that anyone says can change the facts. Where was the National Guard that was requested by Donal Trump and other Conservatives. Turned down by Nancy P. and her minions. Afterward, Nancy puts a fence around the Capital to show how afraid she was. Nonsense.
Off the subject, but the OPEN BORDER OF THE USA is a bigger problem! A crucial crisis.
Bunch of incel losers do a cosplay coup and pay the price.
Just because they are bad at sedition doesn’t mean they didn’t try to do it.
Throw away the key.
Grow up boy! You’re a fantasist and probably always will be.
Not the first and not the last who’ll end up sporting the orange jumpsuit for an extended period due to buying into Agent Orange’s baloney and criminality.
The Proud Boys always were inadequate, pathetic Sad Boys. Like 99% of men who join some form of extreme or terrorist organisation/affiliation. It’s displacement activity for the unthinking.
Had they been Black and invaded Congress they’d have been hozed down by the Police and National Guard, so they can count their lucky stars they had allies in high place at least on that day.
Their sentences do seem much more harsh than anything that’s been dished out to those who took part during the BLM riots though, so I’d wager it’s actually those groups rather than idiots like the Proud Boys who have friends in high places
The average sentence for BLM riots 2020 was 2 years (120 convictions). The average for Jan 6 is 120 days (1100 convictions). A plannned attack on the government is taken as more serious than a street riot, for some reason.
“A planned attack on the government”!!!!
Come off if! It was a complete farce.
When than attack does come God help you, for as history has shown, it will be ‘sine missione’ – without mercy.
I know it’s shocking Charles, but it was. A stoopid one perhaps, but with the express, declared intent of distrupting the peaceful transfer of power – by some. Stupidity is not an excuse in the eyes of the law (unless to the extent, perhaps of profound mental retardation). If you try to rob a bank with a banana under your jacket, and writing a stick-up note on the bank of your mother’s chequebook, you still get the time – but you know this already……
Would you be thinking the same way if a leftist mob had stormed into the Buckingham Palace to prevent Johnson being appointed? Whist not claiming super-powers, I am as sure as damn-it that we both know the answer already. I’m just wondering why you are prentending otherwise.
Court Marshall for all officers and NCOs.
The actions of the Proud Boys must be manna from heaven for the Democrats.
If Trump was so worried about the election why did he not make sure officials were at the counts? Trump appears to believe he will be believed even if he does not produce evidence.
If Trump was so concerned why has he allowed himself and his supporters to be manipulated? In this political game of chess it is vital that Trump makes the move least wanted by The Democrats, not the most wanted.
Trump like Johnson appears incapable of maintaining loyalty of those around him whereas Obama has this skill.
The Democrats realise Trump and The Proud Boys lack discernment, sagacity and self- control and therefore are able to manipulate them in doing that which undermines their cause and helps them.
I am sorry but we will have to disagree over this!
Incidentally Buckingham Palace whilst not invulnerable to solo intruders, could probably repel a bunch of weirdos, such as blundered into the Capitol Building.
Also I very much doubt our Metropolitan Police would have shot an unarmed possibly hysterical woman at point blank range. In the very unlikely event they had done so they would have faced the full force of the Law, and NOT been given a medal.
I agree the Met would very probably not have shot (although….de Menezes) – this is not because they are better police, but because are, quite literally, millions of guns in the the USA, and the police are rightfully on edge. Back to the other point – several hundred people have now been convicted, in American courts, of taking part in an insurrection – judges and juries have poured over the evidence for millions of man hours – you know better than they?
How many charges were dropped altogether? 120 convictions is shockingly low.
200 curfews, 96,000 National Guards deployed, 14,000 arrests – they made quite an effort. 93% of the 7,700 protest remained peaceful (about half of Americans think that most were violent). If there is inconsistency in the police/legal repurcussions, I suspect it may be down to the incendiary nature of the Floyd situation (20,000,000 people protesting racial police violence, watched by the World, with similar protests in many other coutnries in Europe, Asia, Africa); the fact that many in the Jan 6 riot, attacked/invaded/looted Congress to protest/prevent election results from being carried through (an insurrection/treason attempt however incompetent); and that Jan 6 was a highly organised event at the heart of government where cameras cover every inch of land.
Jan 6 – 1,100 people charged. 629 pleaded guilty, about 500 sentences, 100s still awaiting trial. You say this is evidence of inconsistent treatment, I say it’s due to the especial seriousness of treason/attacks on the centre of the system (a long established tradition – one example: taking photos or shouting can get a year in prison…..if done in a law court), and the very real-politic need to go carefully where racial aspects of policing in the US are concerned.
“Had they been Black and invaded Congress they’d have been hozed down by the Police and National Guard,”
Of course they wouldn’t. They’d have been welcomed with open arms. (btw: the dictionary is your friend. Get one).