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The Olympics are not safe for women Imane Khelif punctured the myth that sex is immaterial

Imane Khelif punches Angela Carini (Fabio Bozzani/Anadolu via Getty Images)

Imane Khelif punches Angela Carini (Fabio Bozzani/Anadolu via Getty Images)


August 2, 2024   5 mins

It looked like a man punching a woman. Algeria’s Imane Khelif, at 5’10”, is only two inches taller than Italy’s Angela Carini; but watching the two in the ring of the women’s 66kg boxing at the Olympics, the difference between them was painfully obvious. Khelif’s hard, rangy body had more reach, and more power. After taking two ferocious blows, Carini abandoned the bout, receiving the final result in devastated tears.

It looked like a man punching a woman because, according to the International Boxing Association, Khelif is not a woman. In 2023, Khelif was disqualified from the World Boxing Championships along with Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting  — “a result of their failure to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women’s competition”. This decision was based, not on testosterone levels, but on “a separate and recognised test, whereby the specifics remain confidential”.

A Russian-language statement (the IBA is Russian-led) put it more bluntly: “Based on the results of DNA tests, we identified a number of athletes who tried to deceive their colleagues and pretended to be women. Based on the results of the tests, it was proven that they have XY chromosomes.” Lin did not appeal, while Khelif initiated an appeal and then withdrew it, meaning that in both cases, the judgement became legally binding.

But not binding on the Olympics, which withdrew recognition from the IBA earlier this year over multiple concerns over governance. That means the International Olympic Committee (IOC) is free to apply its own rules on sex categories in sport. IOC spokesperson Mark Adams warned against starting a “witch hunt… These are regular athletes who have competed for many years in boxing; they are entirely eligible and they are women on their passports.”

Which would be a totally acceptable way to classify sex, if the fight was between passports, rather than two bone-and-sinew bodies. Khelif is apparently not female, in a category designed for female athletes. And while the IOC has been keen to emphasise that this controversy is wholly unrelated to the contentious matter of trans women in sport, that is an impossible separation to maintain. The question of how sex should be defined — by chromosomes, by hormone levels or by legal marker on a passport — is the heart of the argument over inclusion.

What happened in the ring in Paris is a riposte to all the absurd claims that sex is immaterial to athletic performance. Witness, for example, the writers Rebecca Jordan-Young and Katrina Karkazis, who argued in a 2012 New York Times op-ed for “letting go of the idea that the ultimate goal of a fair policy is to protect the ‘purity’ of women’s competitions”. If inclusion is the objective, “then sex-segregated competition is just one of many possible options, and in many cases it might not be the best one”.

“What happened in the ring in Paris is a riposte to all the absurd claims that sex is immaterial to athletic performance.”

And anyway, doesn’t the enforcement of sex categories simply re-instil bad old stereotypes about female weakness and vulnerability? That, at least, is what the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) believes. “Excluding women who are trans hurts all women,” says the organisation’s self-identified factsheet on sports. “It invites gender policing that could subject any woman to invasive tests or accusations of being ‘too masculine’ or ‘too good’ at their sport to be a ‘real’ woman.” History professor Johanna Mellis even suggested in The Guardian that women’s sports categories might have been invented by men “to limit our athletic success and opportunities by reinforcing sexist notions of cisgender girls and women as the ‘weaker, slower sex’”.

From there, it’s a short distance to travel to the often-repeated claim that, as an article in LGBTQ+ magazine Them put it, sex differences should be viewed “much like the way we view Michael Phelps’s abnormal wingspan”. Athletes are, by definition, physical exceptions. A male person who has been legally recognised as female is simply another example of biological variation, and — claimed sports correspondent Jonathan Liew (now of The Guardian, but then writing in The Independent) — perhaps one to be celebrated: he claimed that, “in a way, it would be inspiring” if trans women came to dominate women’s sport.

So far, chromosomes notwithstanding, Khelif has not dominated women’s boxing. XY chromosomes notwithstanding, Khelif lost in the quarter-final of the Tokyo Olympics to Kellie Harrington of Ireland, who went on to take the gold: BBC 5 Live boxing analyst Steve Bunce pointed out that Khelif is “not a devastating puncher” and has ever only achieved five stoppages. The implication, perhaps, is that Carini could have fought on, and maybe even beaten Khelif if she’d been good enough. Maybe so.

But genetically male athletes do not only become a problem in women’s sport when they’re successful. Every XY athlete “included” means an XX athlete pushed out. In combat or collision sports, they also imperil the female athletes they compete against. According to the organisation Women in Sport, male athletes have (on average) 40-50% greater upper limb strength and 12kg more skeletal muscle mass when compared to age-matched female athletes at any given body weight.

A technically accomplished woman might win a fight against a man, but the risk of injury she takes in the process is immense. So Casini had every right to weigh her own safety. After the bout, she said: “It could have been the match of a lifetime, but I had to preserve my life as well in that moment.” Boxing is inherently dangerous — but there is a very different level of exposure in agreeing to be punched by another woman, and agreeing to be punched by a man.

This is the difference that proponents of eliminating sex categories in sport cannot acknowledge. Some, like Liew, may tacitly accept it while being fundamentally unconcerned about what that would mean in practice for women in sport — perhaps because they consider women’s sport to be fundamentally unserious. (“Sometimes we forget that there are bigger things than sport,” wrote Liew in his Independent piece, which is not an observation he ever appears to have made about men’s sport.)

But for others, particularly for women, and perhaps most particularly for women who are not actively involved in physical pursuits, there is a kind of hope in this denialism. They would like to believe that women’s physical disadvantage compared to men really is a purely, or at least largely, social phenomenon. They recognise women’s inferior status, and they understand that this is tied to the body; but they believe that the body is the cause of the inferiority, and so the body becomes politically inconvenient. They choose instead a tactful fiction of physiological equality — if not in the here and now, then in the inclusive Jerusalem to come.

The female body can, certainly, do more than the male authorities who run sports have historically liked to believe: there is a long and weird tradition of claiming that exercise will cause a woman’s uterus to fall out. Given fair access to training and competition (something which is still very far from assured), women do become faster, stronger, more aggressive. I know this from personal experience. I started powerlifting in my late thirties, and in my forties can pull weights I once thought cartoonishly huge. But I also know that the same weights pulled by a man would be much less impressive, which is why comparing myself to men tells me nothing at all about my progression.

Mixed-sex sports simply lead to exceptional women being forced out by mediocre men: brute strength besting accomplishment. The Olympics’ failure to protect women’s sport is a tragedy for female athletes, but it also makes a travesty of the competition overall. What should be a celebration of excellence becomes, through the IOC’s contempt for fairness and safety in women’s sport, the elevation of the mediocre. After decades of obfuscation and inanity over gender and sport, the truth of it all became clear in an entirely unnecessary meeting: between an apparently male fist and a female face.


Sarah Ditum is a columnist, critic and feature writer.

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Michael Cazaly
Michael Cazaly
1 month ago

Calling a camel a horse doesn’t make it one. Never has and never will.

Graham Stull
Graham Stull
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Cazaly

What about calling a zebra a horse? You see, these things are not always black and white…

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Stull

But zebras ARE black and white

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
1 month ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

A sense of irony just died a death.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

So it did. Even though many zebras have brown stripes. Apologies for the pedantry.

General Store
General Store
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Cazaly

Damn!!! Does this mean Manuel’s hamster was not a hamster but a rat?

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Cazaly

Plenty of horses being called camels in the police, fire brigade, military, thanks to decades of “gender equality.”

Right-Wing Hippie
Right-Wing Hippie
1 month ago

IOC spokesperson Mark Adams warned against starting a “witch hunt… These are regular athletes who have competed for many years in boxing; they are entirely eligible and they are women on their passports.”
Classic magical thinking: change the name, change the thing.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

What a horrible obfuscation. They are women because they move around carrying a piece of paper that says so.

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago

They are not transgender, they were born girls, why do you stoop to the lowest form of bigotry

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago

Who was born girls? You’ve lost me.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

These women were born and raised as girls. They knew nothing else. This does not mean however that they should be allowed to compete in female sports. Especially contact sports.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The athlete accused by some here of being a man. Try to keep up, they were assigned female at birth.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

What were you ‘assigned’ at birth and do you maintain it? Asking for a friend

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

Male, and no — I fixed that error.

Dennis Roberts
Dennis Roberts
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The article alludes to it but doesn’t say explicity (can’t imagine why…) but Imane Khelif is not transgender – they are competing as they were born (as far as I’m aware). It’s just that they seem to have been born with genitalia that were identified as female, but apparently have a Y chromosome. Presumably some form of intersex.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

There is no name change involved, Imane Khelif has always been her name she was assigned female at birth.

Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 month ago

A good article but one correction is needed.

“It looked like a man punching a woman because, according to the International Boxing Association, Khelif is not a woman.”

No, Khelif is not a woman because biology. What defines defines “man” and “woman” and (very rarely) “intersex” is immutable genetics. He has XY chromosomes. If this wasn’t enough, he has a testosterone level of a normal man, he went through puberty and became a man, and he doesn’t even claim to be transgender.

In fact the only thing that even suggests he is a woman is a piece of paper issued by a government bureaucracy. I rest my case.

The author, like many women do to their cost, extends politeness to a bully, and a savage one at that. Don’t play Khelif’s game. Stand up to him and say it like it is. He’s a pathetic specimen of a man, not just cheating women but battering them.

There’s a queue of misogynists and opportunists queuing up behind him to once again make competitive sport a male-only activity. Don’t enable them.

Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

I believe he is actually intersex, i.e. he was born with female genitalia but XY chromosomes.

A J
A J
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

Someone who has been through male puberty must have testes, and is therefore a man. Unless they’ve been taking testosterone, which would disqualify them for doping.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  A J

“Someone who has been through male puberty must have testes” <– Not the case. The adrenal glands and ovaries and pituitary (or hypothalamus, I don’t recall) all make testosterone in typical cisgender females, and what is required to undergo a male puberty is sufficient testosterone — not testicles.

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

You need to study a proper textbook on endocrinology before you make another entry. The action of ALL sex hormones, in BOTH sexes, requires target tissues to be responsive to them. Mutant genes can mean that tissues and organs (e.g. male external genitalia) do not develop normally, despite the fact that every other aspect of maleness, including (usually) proclivity to the opposite sex, is normal. This absolutely includes all the strength and other advantages which male athletes have over female ones.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

I have the textbook. What I said is correct, what you said is irrelevant to my reply to what I quoted.

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

What textbook is that? Yes the ovaries and adrenal glands in healthy women will produce small amounts of testosterone, but certainly not the pituitary gland or hypothalamus.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Layman

Thank you for admitting I am perfectly accurate — I did not say large amounts, I did not refer to any amount at all (other than nonzero).

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Forgot to mention that a normally functioning SRY Gene (Sex Determining Gene on the Y-Chromosome) is essential to confer maleness. That is why anyone with a genotype which has a Y-chromosome (XY, normal male) is destined to become phenotypically (outwardly) male, unless there are non-functioning, mutant genes.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

If a present SRY gene was always functional and always present on only a Y you would have a point.
You do not.

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

It is just about the only thing that the Y-chromosome does; there are very few functional autosomal genes on it.
The Y-chromosome is ESSENTIAL in conferring a male phenotype.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

No the SRY gene is fairly essential in conferring a male phenotype. It is not always on the Y.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

The gonads produce the overwhelming amount of testosterone in the body. Perhaps Khelif has internal (undescended) gonads, like Caster Semenya. Male on the inside, female on the outside. It’s complicated.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

And what is most likely is the accusation is FoS.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

That is a DSD. All DSDs are applicable to only male or female. There are no DSDs that apply to both male and female; they are sex specific. There is no hermaphrodite. Humans are not snails.

Jean Redpath
Jean Redpath
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

I cannot believe all the people down-voting you. Even the Daily Mail did a better job at getting the facts correct. There are many different conditions where people are born with female genitalia but have XY chromosomes. Some have internal testes, while some have neither ovaries nor testes. Some can even get pregnant. Imane clearly is one of these, not a man masquerading as a woman – she has lived her whole life as a woman. Such people deserve sympathy and sensitivity, not the the kind of knee-jerk reaction evident in this piece. Incidentally, Imane lost many matches in the last Olympics.

Matthew Powell
Matthew Powell
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

Whilst there are Differences of Sexual Development that mean that males with XY chromosomes do not properly response to testosterone, which can lead to ambiguous or even apparent external female genitalia, they do not have ovaries, a uterus or a womb and so absolutely cannot become pregnant. Also the Olympics is a knock out competition, you cannot lose many matches in one tournament.

I have sympathy of Imane, as far as I am aware they were raised as a girl based on the appearance of their genitalia. However, there were obvious signs that they may have had a DSD and upon its discovery they should have withdrawn from female competition. Whilst this may be distressing many young athletes careers are cut short by injury, illness or medical conditions, it difficult to deal with but that’s the reality of sporting competition. Sadly for Imane they are not an elite level female competitor but likely an average male one. This may be hard to come to terms with but it is the truth.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

You are incorrect. People with XY chromosomes have on occasion given birth.

“However, there were obvious signs that they may have had a DSD and upon its discovery they should have withdrawn from female competition.”

No, they should be required to lower their testosterone to cisgender typical levels.

“Sadly for Imane they are not an elite level female competitor but likely an average male one.”

Ah the good old “one drop” rule! As nasty in this flavor as any other.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Can you cite one case? A link? (and not to someone’s blog).

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Out of how many cases?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

No relevance to that. Any real thing contrary a proposition disproves that proposition.

Thomas Wagner
Thomas Wagner
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

For crying out loud, those were individuals with Swyer’s syndrome, where the ovaries were nonfunctional, despite an external female appearance. The pregnancies were achieved with artificial insemination.
There was just one case (don’t know if it was included in the 15 or not) where “A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.”
Complete gonadal dysgenesis. Poor child. Incidentally, the whole extended family was a complete genetic mess.
I don’t think that mother wanted to compete in the Olympics.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Thomas Wagner

“The pregnancies were achieved with artificial insemination.” <– No, not in all cases.

There is no such thing as an exception proving a rule — all exceptions prove how a rule is wrong.

Matthew Powell
Matthew Powell
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

“You are incorrect. People with XY chromosomes have on occasion given birth.”

Correct but vanishingly rare. There is only one know instance of pregnancy being viable without donated eggs.

“No, they should be required to lower their testosterone to cisgender typical levels.”

Testosterone levels are not the defining factor in success in sporting competition. The androgenising effects for testosterone during development and puberty bestow lifelong advantages, than cannot be removed by lowering testosterone later in life.

“Ah the good old “one drop” rule! As nasty in this flavor as any other.”

A cheap, ridiculous and in no way a legitimate parallel. Individuals who have been through male puberty cannot fairly or safely participate in the female category.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

“A cheap, ridiculous and in no way a legitimate parallel.”

It is perfectly fair and accurate.

“Individuals who have been through male puberty cannot fairly or safely participate in the female category.”

Horseshit. Exactly such a requirement was the Olympic requirement for 18 years running, and should be again — that testosterone levels should be cisgender female typical for 2 years contiguously prior to competing in women’s events.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

What about those females that have experienced a male puberty, more than 2 years prior, and thus have the advantage of the increase in muscle mass that develops during a male puberty?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

There is no such muscle mass which persists after 2 years and no more of HRT.

Thomas Wagner
Thomas Wagner
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

That rule was stupid then and remains stupid now. Those who are XY, have had the advantage of testosterone during development and have gone through puberty shouldn’t be competing in womens’ sports, no matter what the inventors of novel “rights” think.
Oddly, these transwomen don’t seem to want to compete in events involving agility and flexibility where women excel, only in those where you get to hit someone.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Thomas Wagner

“That rule was stupid then and remains stupid now” <– Except it worked perfectly well.

There is no such thing as a permanent net athletic advantage to having had a male puberty.

You don’t know there are not MtF athletes in the sports you claim they are not in.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Can you name any XY human beings who have both conceived in vivo and subsequently gone to full term gestation and given birth? Unlikely as the handful of cases you refer to (and if the medical papers are in fact even reliable) were all the result of IVF from egg donors. The ethics of this seem somewhat questionable to say the least.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

“The ethics of this seem somewhat questionable to say the least.”

To you, but the “gender critical” have the evident moral compass of Oskar Dirlewanger.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

It seems we’ve gone beyond Reductio ad Hitlerum to Reductio ad Dirlewangerum. If you really associate being gender critical with that psychopath then it’s you that need counselling.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

The gender critical seek to force boys to have breasts and periods and to force girls to have beards and deep voices. You are the Mengeles you complain about.

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

NO-ONE with an XY genotype has given birth because they are MALE.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

Imbecile, I have already linked here in this thread to a report of such pregnancies recorded in medical literature.

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I take the insult ‘imbecile’ as a compliment as it comes from you; the enlightened one!

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

And you would do better to not, but you are not able.

General Store
General Store
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

Nope they can’t get pregnant.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  General Store

Wrong, as I’ve cited here at least twice already.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

While you may have compassion for someone with a medical condition, that should not extend to allowing genetic males who have been through male puberty to compete in women’s sports. Sorry, that’s a red line.

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago

She is not male, she is not a man, ffs, stop listening to bigots, every other sport body has discounted the only one that ”found” xy and people cannot be blamed for anything that happens in the womb. The woman writing this nonsense should be ashamed as the young Italian girl has apologise profusely for being a d**k

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
1 month ago

The best available evidence – the DNA test – says he is male.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

No, such does not — no such lab result has surfaced.

Thomas Wagner
Thomas Wagner
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Yes it has. Read the second and third paragraphs of the story.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Thomas Wagner

No, it has not. It has been alleged.

“Surfaced” would mean a certified copy of the original or the original including who carried out the test and by what mechanism, qualified to do so in a properly ISO certified lab, is a document made available.

Arthur King
Arthur King
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

No, they deserve scorn for exploiting their condition to crush the dreams of normal women. Seeing the woman on her knees in despair at losing to that fraud drop many people towards the far right. Your misplaced empathy is toxic to real women.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 month ago
Reply to  Arthur King

Totally agree. This person clearly recognises he has a distinct advantage in the sport and has brutally exploited it for his own gratification. It’s utterly vile.

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago
Reply to  Robbie K

SHE IS A WOMAN, SHE WAS BORN A GIRL, SHE IS NOT EXPLOITING ANYTHING

Ex Nihilo
Ex Nihilo
1 month ago

Screaming does not make something true. “She” was not “born a girl”; she was born perhaps with ambiguous gentitalia but not a biological girl. Such people are certainly deserving of understanding and compassion but not the right to beat the h**l out of women. Nobody really cares what a person so comprised chooses to call themselves or how they dress or what’s on their passport. But if a perturbation of nature causes them to be physically stronger than women they have no place in women’s sports. And yes, they most definitely are exploiting a peculiar situation that inherently works to their advantage at the expense of other people who are comparatively disadvantaged. If that isn’t the definition of exploitation, what is? I refuse to believe that such people do things like go into women’s boxing because they are simply following their dreams. They do so to act out on sublimated rage against the circumstance life dealt them and as a way to lash out against natural women who they can never truly be. They also want the world to pay for their misfortune by shoving their aberrancy in our faces and forcing us to contort our morality in their exclusive behalf. Nature unfortunately made them different but they make themselves into monsters when they choose to physically assault people weaker than themselves.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Ex Nihilo

““She” was not “born a girl”;

Not only was she, you have no excuse whatsoever to claim otherwise.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

Saying to these bigots what is real really is like beating your head into a brick wall, isn’t it?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Arthur King

Except they have lost 9 times to “normal women”. She is a real women, and observed to be so at birth.

Graham Bennett
Graham Bennett
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Ah, so now you accept ‘observed’ at birth. I was led to believe that for your type ‘observed at birth’ meant nothing? Or does it only mean something when it’s convenient? If sex is ‘assigned’, and is essentially an oppressive cis-gender conspiracy, how can it now be ‘observed’ in the case of Khelif? Which one is it?

Chris J
Chris J
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Bennett

Sorry Graham, only saw your much better comment after I posted.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Bennett

Liar. Not one word you said there is true and relevant.

It that you know you lie and don’t care, which is why I have such contempt for you.

Thomas Wagner
Thomas Wagner
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Okay, now you’re approaching the argumentuum ad Hitlerium. Calling your opponent a liar when you can’t counter his argument is outside the limit.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Thomas Wagner

A) It is a genocide you Social Conservatives are trying to gin up for transgender — every category of what is a genocide is met but extra/pseudojudicial murder.

B) I have countered their argument, neither you nor they ave the wit and honesty to admit it.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Bennett

“I was led to believe that for your type ‘observed at birth’ meant nothing?” <– Why yes, you take other bigots as being credible, they lead you by the nose.

The point is it has only ever been you bigots stupidly claiming that assigned meant anything arbitrary. It literally is a sign made on paper and that is an official indication of how a child is to be raised and for that matter what bathroom they can legally use — and that equally literally there are errors to that assignment which are not visually obvious on observation.

The gender of a person (which you can not admit is a physical thing developing in a fixed manner while in utero) can not even be observed visually at birth, so it’s assignment can only ever be accurate by happenstance, however usual.

Chris J
Chris J
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I thought people were assigned at birth not observed. So this person was surely assigned incorrectly or does that not apply when it is inconvenient.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Chris J

Imbecile, people are assigned at birth — it is only your bigoted stupidity which leads to you complain that “assigned” implies any arbitrariness — and — your bigoted stupidity which leads to pretend observation is always correct.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Yes, assigned at birth based on visual inspection of the genitalia, and that is going to correspond to actual sex/gender 99.9% of the time. But in some cases there will be “ambiguities”. How are those ambiguities meant to be handled? That is the question here.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

And the answer has been known of for over 20 years now, it is to require of athletes in women’s categories that they have no testosterone elevated above cisgender female typical levels for as much as 2 years prior to competing in those categories.

Admitting what worked for 18 years in the Olympics is a solution gives you Social Conservatives nothing to use a propaganda in your moral panic, however.

Graham Bennett
Graham Bennett
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Like Joe Biden, this comment makes no sense whatsoever. Total discombobulation.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Bennett

Of course you can not admit it makes perfect sense — that would invalidate a lie you love.

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Where is your evidence for that?
I thought that “assigned at birth” was completely a completely unreliable way of determining whether someone is male or female?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

Liar it is correct a good 149 times out of 150, you will find precious few claiming otherwise but the morons such as yourself who claim it is essentially never wrong.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Perhaps Khelif is not an excellent boxer, but other attributes have allowed Khelif to overcome most female opponents. If simply being male was enough to win a boxing match, then all men’s matches would end in a draw. As an analogy, perhaps a heavy weight male boxer may occasionally lose to a lower weight, but they are in different weight classes for a reason.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

There is no evidence whatsoever she is male.

Dennis Roberts
Dennis Roberts
1 month ago
Reply to  Arthur King

Why are they a fraud? They are what they were born naturally – whether whatever that is (no-one seems to know exactly what that is) should be allowed to complete in women’s sport is a question to be asked, but there’s no fraud.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

And at that, transgender women are not men masquerading as women either.

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

That is the literal definition of what they are.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

No, it is literally not.

The definition is a woman born with the birth defect of having an apparently male sex.

There is no masquerade, there is no mask or costume to take off.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

So, is Khelif then a man born with the birth defect of having an apparently female sex?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

No, she is apparently not a man at all.

Thomas Wagner
Thomas Wagner
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Nope. The Oxford Languages definition is, “denoting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond with the sex registered for them at birth. This includes males who wake up one morning and suddenly decide they’re female, They’re still XY, hormonal treatment and plastic surgery to the contrary notwithstanding.
Khalif apparently was born with external female genitalia, was raised as a girl and has boxed as a woman. Still open is her genetic complement. The IBF claims she is XY, but this determination was suddenly made after she won over a favored Russian boxer, so it’s open to challenge.
If she is genetically found to be XY after a properly supervised second test, she shouldn’t be allowed to box against women. I’m sure that will be a terrible disappointment, but so are the technical decisions made every day by the Olympic Committee, many with less justification with this one.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Thomas Wagner

“denoting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond with the sex registered for them at birth.”

That is inclusive of what I said.

“The definition is a woman born with the birth defect of having an apparently male sex.” <– The definition of a transgender woman.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Well, that depends on your definition of “masquerading”. I would consider the need for puberty blockers, testosterone replacement, breast implants, gender reassignment surgery, wigs, make-up, beard hair removal, therapy and wearing “exaggeratingly feminine clothing” pretty much an example of masquarading.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

That’s an interesting insight. And suggests that in this case, it’s not as easy and obvious, though there is still little justification for allowing it.

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

It is impossible to become pregnant if you have XY sex determining chromosomes. If you don’t believe me, look at some medical textbooks.

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

Wrong.
There is only one condition where someone is born with XY chromosomes by is anatomically female – Swyer Syndrome – and it is incredibly rare.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

You goddamn idiot, look up CAIS. If there are 8.1 billion people in the world, there are near 400,000 people who have XY chromosomes and are women and assigned female at birth.

The most appalling thing about you brainless bigots is how sure you are of what is complete balderdash!

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

He is, and always will be, a man. The only masculine trait he doesn’t have, apparently, is external male genitalia. This may be because of the same mutation affecting Caster Semenya which means that an enzyme is lacking which is responsible for making certain androgens which cause normal male genitalia to develop. In every single other aspect, both of these people are men.
It seems absolutely ludicrous that any sporting body can advocate the taking hormones to depress testosterone to an arbitrary level in order to compete against women.
These individuals are not excluded from sport; they should be competing in the men’s category where their sporting mediocrity would be exposed immediately.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

“He is, and always will be, a man.”

Not what the doctor said when she popped out.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

What did the doctor say when you popped out? Doctor must be right, eh?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 month ago

The doctor should have said someone who will go on to completely lose it on a moderate, polite talk board. Calling people morons, liars, imbeciles, bigots and etc. Way to go.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

Reality is not a matter of opinions, but of what is measured. I refer accurately to most here as morons, liars, imbeciles, bigots, child abusers, ignorant, etc., because they persist in expressing nonfactual opinions and to the end of hurting innocent people.

Most doctors go by evidence.

The Herd here has none.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

The point is how often and in what ways are they wrong. The measure you gender critical bigots first go by — because you are ignorant, evil, and stupid — says Imane Khelif is a girl.

So are you admitting now that how someone’s genitalia looks has nothing to do with it necessarily?

Chris J
Chris J
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

You do not believe in wrongly assigned at birth when it is inconvenient.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Chris J

Imbecile, I know that assignment made at birth can be incorrect and I assure you that when so it is not convenient.

Clare De Mayo
Clare De Mayo
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Actually, a doctor may have never filled out Khelif’s BC. Growing up in a rural area, these details were often filled out by the family. And if Khelif is DSD 5-ARD (which is most likely, and the same as Caster Semenya) then there would have been ambiguous external gentalia, which would appear feminine. It would only be apparent when Khelif went through male puberty that he was male and had a DSD. And he has clearly gone through male puberty.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Sure, but the Dr didn’t have all the facts.

David Morley
David Morley
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

The only masculine trait he doesn’t have, apparently, is external male genitalia.

Just a minor point then!

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  David Morley

We are discussing the issue of athletic performance here; not the tragedy of an individual without external genitalia.

David Harris
David Harris
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

In that case he’s not female. He’s male.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

That’s one category of ‘intersex’ conditions. There are several others, including XXX, XXY and XYY triploid conditions. In all cases the individuals are essentially male or female, although there is some variation in phenotypes. Ovotestis, where an individual possesses ovarian and testicular tissue is incredibly rare at 1 in 100,000 births and there are serious associated co-morbidities.
Intersex is a misleading term that lacks specificity.

Tanya Kennedy
Tanya Kennedy
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

That is his problem, as much as it is a problem for blind or cleft lip people to be born as such.
Life is NOT fair , never was and never will be.
But lets not make it even more unfair, by humans.
( Don’t bother answering that deaf = hearing impaired or blind= visually impared. )

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

She.

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

A DNA test showed that he has XY chromosomes. There is no evidence that he has female genitalia.
There is a DSD called Swyer syndrome, where someone is born with XY but has female genitalia, but this is incredibly rare – 100 recorded human cases according to Wikipedia.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

“A DNA test showed that he has XY chromosomes.”

That is a claim made — no such lab report has surfaced.

Thomas Wagner
Thomas Wagner
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Then conduct the test. Problem solved.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Thomas Wagner

Not on account of the likes of you.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Well said Nell, my sentiments exactly. However, your second sentence has grammatical errors which is unusual for you.
I can’t relate to women wanting to box in the first place but transwomen wanting to muscle in on yet another women’s “sport” I find repulsive and outrageous. One wonders where, and if, the takeover will ever end. These men wanting to have the best of both worlds gives me the creeps and their sense of entitlement is obscene.

Jean Redpath
Jean Redpath
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

She is not trans. She requires no surgery to obtain female genitalia.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

Your imagination is getting carried away here. We don’t actually know, but it seems inconcievable he has l***a, a vulva and a vagina.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Robbie K

He has a what?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

She.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

No, he.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

No, never yet.

Thomas Wagner
Thomas Wagner
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Alright, it. Everybody happy?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Robbie K

And yet, she was assigned female at birth because of exactly that appearance.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

No he wasn’t.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Yes she was idiot.

I wonder when you will have the decency to eat your words?

Chris J
Chris J
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Really, now you say assigning is correct because it is convenient.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Chris J

No, I say assigning because it is perfectly accurate — literally a sign is made on paper.

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

I think you mean ‘he’!

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

She was born a girl you utterly nasty bigots. Why are men so pathetic, when I was a scrawny 7 stone girl I beat every damn boy in school at sprinting and swimming and in every exam and test and was proud as hell. It was considered a great badge of honour

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
1 month ago

That’s correct, you may have done that as a girl, but not as a woman competing against men.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

No, she.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

It’s a he and I have no idea what you mean about the female genitalia.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

She is a she and has been considered so since her birth.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Not by the rest of us. Does he have a uterus?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Fool, by every one. In fact, only one Russian owned and run organization has ever claimed other wise, and only after she beat a Russian boxer — no such thing has been alleged before or since. You don’t even have any excuse to doubt she has a uterus.

Clare De Mayo
Clare De Mayo
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Actually, that’s IOC propaganda. The IBA followed a very professional process, with test conducted in two independent countries. Read the minutes of their committee meeting here https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/BoD-meeting-minutes_New-Delhi_FV-approved.pdf

Thomas Wagner
Thomas Wagner
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare De Mayo

Thanks for the link. The meeting minutes, however, did not specify what tests were actually conducted, only that they were done in Istanbul and India.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare De Mayo

“The IBA followed a very professional process”

So they claim. They have published no evidence, only claims.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

What?!

Chris J
Chris J
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

Where does it say that this person does have female genitalia?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Well put. It is the latest evolution of the Cultural Marxist mind virus. The aim is the disintegration of Western Civilisation.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 month ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Done and dusted, innit?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I don’t think it’s a plan.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 month ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Unfortunately, the next step will be the West trying to infect areas such as South America and India with this same virus, and pressure being put on governments there by the activist class here in the West.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I owe you an apology, Nell. Apparently “because” is the new English that can be used in the way you used it – grammatically correct but, nevertheless. super confusing.

Janet G
Janet G
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

“I can’t relate to women wanting to box in the first place “. I can’t relate to anyone wanting to participate in competitive sport. Does anyone remember the popularity of co-operative games in the 1970s?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

He’s a pathetic specimen of a man
Perhaps. Though I feel a certain sympathy for him Nature has dealt him a fairly brutal hand – albeit he hasn’t responded with any grace, but simply chosen to exploit his ambiguous status in the most damaging way.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 month ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Yes. This is a hugely difficult journey for a person but I cannot fathom why she would take the course she is pursuing. It is a contact sport so is not even debatable. The Semenya example is debatable.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

She is an atypical example of a woman, and was assigned female at birth. She has lost numerous bouts to other cisgender females, where is the exploitation?

Chris J
Chris J
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

This should not be seen as a discussion with regard to just one person, particularly as there is also a second fighting n this Olympics.

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

See my comment, an unskilled male is beatable by a highly skilled female, to a point. This has no relevance to the argument.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Layman

Or, “a good bigun will always beat a good littlun” as they say.

Graham Stull
Graham Stull
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

A part of me was almost glad (not actually glad because the scene was as gross as everyone saw it to be) that this happened, because it is the poopy-cherry on the t**d cake that is these Olympics. From the authoritarian Covid-era QR codes to enter Paris, to the disgusting money being made by the corporate capitalists, to the exclusion of Russian athletes for purely political reasons, to the obscene, dystopian opening ‘ceremony’, these Wokelympics are exactly what you would expect from a dying system.

Tom Philokalia
Tom Philokalia
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Stull

A dying system, indeed. As this idiocy proceeds how long will it be until the Olympic audience stop watching the farce that it has become.

J Bryant
J Bryant
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Philokalia

I’ve been asking that question about the Oscars for years, but millions of people still watch (so I’m told).

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom Philokalia

You are right, but we watch to view athletes from our countries who have toiled for years to compete on the world’s stage.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Stull

That’s why I am not watching this crap. I absolutely refuse to support this nonsense by turning on the telly.

Graham Stull
Graham Stull
1 month ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Ditto.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

To be fair, the author was using the decision of the IBA as a rhetorical device. But yes, anyone who has XY chromosomes is a man. Doesn’t matter if the testes are internal, as I understand is common in XY DSD cases. Still a man. For one thing, the pictures show a man with a male upper body punching a woman with breasts. TBH, I am not watching the Olympics any more this time. This has turned it into a sick disgusting spectacle and I’m not validating it by watching.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

“But yes, anyone who has XY chromosomes is a man.”

Including the XY people who are known to have carried a pregnancy to term?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24313430/&ved=2ahUKEwifuqbG-NaHAxU9vokEHYNpEIkQFnoECBwQAw&usg=AOvVaw2r6s8GP4fcbFPUqZlbzMo6

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 month ago

I feel the same way. I refuse to endorse this by turning on the telly.

General Store
General Store
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

It’s a bit like saying the Enola Gay punctured the myth of antigravitation. It was never really a consideration. Bombs drop, they fall.

Arthur King
Arthur King
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Progressive Ideology be damned. Normal people can see that DSD people are not normal women. Keep them out of sports.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Arthur King

Normal people can see you are a bigot without a functional brain. It is needful only to have the testosterone of an athlete at a cisgender typical level for not more than two years.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

What defines a woman and man is how the gender of the individual has developed — that is why people with CAIS are women.
Imane Khelif was assigned female at birth based on the appearance of her genitalia, the same as you were.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

“Stand up to him and say it like it is. ”
“There’s a queue of misogynists .. to once again make competitive sport a male-only activity.”

Let’s be clear. What’s happening is utterly ridiculous. Nobody ever suggested that men should be able to compete in women’s sports until about a decade back. Even now, it’s only the West were these things are not considered insanely laughable.

Just like nobody thought nine youths could sexually assault a teenage girl, with no remorse, and end up with just one in jail, for 2.5 years.

In other words, it needed a feminist utopia, the gynocentric world that is the West today, for things like this to happen.

It’s the world where boy scouts are misogynistic, we have to pretend women are exactly the same as men in the military, IT or Wimbledon, where Damore got fired.

It took decades of escalating insanity and feminist- Marxist shamelessness to lay the foundations.

And it’s personal.
If a nasty pervert entered my daughter’s toilet and started behaving obscenely while pretending to be a “woman”, there isn’t much I can do about it other than moving house / school.
That’s just unbelievable.

So, no. “Saying it like it is” or laying the blame on “misogyny” won’t cut it. You have to get to the source. The feminists and those who keep bleating about “sexism” if you suggest men are different.

Not as easy as blaming the “men” though, I am afraid.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 month ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

BB had a headline on this: “Imane Khelif Wins First-Ever Gold Medal In Freestyle Domestic Violence”.

Fafa Fafa
Fafa Fafa
1 month ago

What a miserable lowlife, hitting a woman, hiding behind a piece of paper. And what spineless, immoral bureaucrats at the Olympics, arranging this fight between a man and a woman, like back in ancient Rome! What’s next, people thrown in front of lions? Shame on all of them.

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago
Reply to  Fafa Fafa

She is not a man, she was born a girl, she is not transgender or any of the other nonsense being peddled. This is the most ridiculous bigotted beat up.

David Morley
David Morley
1 month ago

I’m not sure all the facts are known about the case – but like you I’m really shocked by the level of bigotry in the comments.

Like it or not, it does make you suspect that behind all the supposed concern in relation to the trans issue lies simple, mean spirited bigotry.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  David Morley

“but like you I’m really shocked by the level of bigotry in the comments.” <– You are in fact claiming to be surprised?

“it does make you suspect that behind all the supposed concern in relation to the trans issue lies simple, mean spirited bigotry.” <– Pray tell, what clued you in?

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 month ago

It’s not bigoted at all. The issue is that in a contact sport such as boxing one wants to have an even playing field. Otherwise it’s just plain dangerous. And by dangerous I mean reall serious things like brain injury and death – no laughing matter I think you’d agree. Nobody would consider a boxing match between a middleweight and a heavy weight a fair fight. The middle weight may well be more skillful but one real punch from the heavyweight and it’s lights out. The same is true of these XY males with an enzyme mutation such that they have both male internal (testes) and female external genitalia. The result of the increased level of testosterone is that such individuals are much much stronger than their XX female counterparts. As a result a boxing match between these XY “female” boxers and XX female boxers is not simply unfair but just plain dangerous. Boxing is a dangerous enough sport as it is without making it even more dangerous.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Fafa Fafa

At least Greek Olympians were in the nood, which presumably cleared up a lot of ambiguities. Maybe not this one though.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 month ago

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.

Jean Redpath
Jean Redpath
1 month ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

If it has a vagina, uterus and fallopian tubes, since birth, is it a woman?

El Uro
El Uro
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

Not necessary

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

If it doesn’t it certainly isn’t and I don’t think in this case it does.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

How do you know that’s the case though? Have you personally done an ultrasound exam or have you seen the results of a chromosome test? My question is genuine: how do you know that this athlete possesses the organs you mention?

Aidan A
Aidan A
1 month ago

The Olympics are not safe for women largely because of women. You can thank feminists for propagating a myth that women are psychologically and biologically equal to men. In the US you can thank women because they support trans issues by a larger margin than men. You can thank those that vote for Democrats, again largely women. I wish my trans brothers and sisters all the best and to live their lives as they like. But, let’s not do cooky things like mix men and women in violent sports, prison populations, etc.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 month ago
Reply to  Aidan A

I resent your blaming women for creepy transwomen. I for one, am horrified at the power that transwomen seem to have. Transmen don’t seem to crave the same power or want to take over in the same way, which says more about men than women. It’s the same male mentality, a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I think you’re shooting the messenger here.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

You are talking there to a bigoted TERF.

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

In these public cases, they reveal themselves to be misogynistic and sociopaths which I believe is strongly linked to the kink they are pursuing and this irresponsible acceptance of it.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Well, in this case it seems like the IOC official who defended the decision is a man and also an old school chum of Sir Kneeler. Go figure. I did do something I have never done before and looked at JK Rowling’s Twitter feed. Came away with even greater respect for her after seeing the bile that gets spewed her way. But another thing I noticed was how much of it came not just from ‘transwomen’ but from their ‘allies’, of which a remarkable number are REAL women. This also chimes with what I observe regularly in my day to day life. Most men find all of this absolutely abhorrent and the enablers are overwhelmingly other women. A case in point is the ghastly Lisa Nandy. I notice that our current government have been rather silent on this matter. Well, after all, our current minister covering sport has given approval to individual governing bodies making the ‘right choice’ and this ‘right choice’ has been defended by a close friend of our spineless cretin of a PM. In the meantime, all those horrible ‘far-right’ types like Trump, Meloni and Truss have called it like it is.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

the bile that gets spewed her way

She deserves every trace of it I’ve seen.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

You agree with people who send threats of violence?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

In response to the violence she espouses, yes — perfectly fair.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I think it shows that most men don’t care about sharing a bathroom or changing room with a trans man. And therefore don’t spend their life online arguing about it.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 month ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

“the power that transwomen seem to have”
He pointed out that the power that trans have is precisely because of the women who voted democrat, support those jerks.
On their own, they have no power. Any man trying to enter a women’s bathroom would be violently ejected by other men normally.

The reason other men can’t act now and why the police and other bodies support trans, is because of the women.

Faith Pollack
Faith Pollack
1 month ago

We all make choices in life that limit us in some way. Choose to study humanities and not STEM and you have created a limitation along with what you hope to be an enrichment. Choose to have children and you limit yourself with a responsibility in exchange for a personal enrichment. Trans yourself and hopefully you gain an enrichment and lose your qualification for competitive sport. Make choices and live with the consequences- also known as growing up.

B. Hallawa
B. Hallawa
1 month ago
Reply to  Faith Pollack

“Make choices and live with the consequences- also known as growing up.”
That sounds like slavery to the other side. This is evil rhetoric to them. They will reject this utterly.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

Something Ditum did not mention was the fact that Khelif and the other male competitor have never said they are trans women or even intersex. So the argument that they are women falls flat. Carini said she had never been hit so hard. Her helmet was smashed against her head and her nose was broken in 46 seconds. She was right to exit when she did, knowing that she could be seriously injured . She probably, instinctively, knew that a man’s punch is 167 times more powerful than a woman’s punch. And that includes your average male couch potato. I guess the IOC’s next move will be to cancel women’s participation, except for trans women. Oh, also male non-binary ‘s. And asexuals. And demigenders. And so on. Just not XX-ers.

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The claim is that a man’s punch is 1.67 times as powerful as a woman’s, not 167 times.

A J
A J
1 month ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

I read it’s 2.67 (in the Telegraph)

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 month ago
Reply to  A J

I’m pretty sure that the 2 places of decimals is ridiculously precise, but there is no question that even a couch potato man carries a much heavier punch than a regular woman. That being said as somebody who is not a boxer, and not tall, I wouldn’t want to go up against Angela Carini either in a fight.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 month ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Amen to that!

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago
Reply to  A J

Yet she has lost to 9 women

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

“The power gap between a male and a female punch is 162%. That is, males males can punch 2.6 times harder than females.”
Math problem!

David Morley
David Morley
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

 a man’s punch is 167 times more powerful than a woman’s punch.

A moments thought would tell you that couldn’t possibly be true. Perhaps you think 167 times less than most people.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Incorrect. As any Hollywood movie, computer game or action TV show made in the past decade will inform you, a woman is easily stronger than a dozen beefy, muscle clad men.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 month ago

Look, the Algerian boxer is called: I,man,e
Clue, much?

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

She was born a girl, she is not trans, not a man, what is wrong with you

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 month ago

It was just a simple joke.
But I understand: wordplay doesn’t translate well below the line.
Especially when read by those devoid of any humour. But, such are our po-faced times.

Matt M
Matt M
1 month ago

Ladies: you should be deeply suspicious of any man that watches Khelif’s next fight or the Taiwanese bloke’s fights. It probably means he is turned on by the sight of men hitting women. Avoid such men at all costs!

A J
A J
1 month ago

Nice avoidance of pronouns for Khalife; well done!

Xaven Taner
Xaven Taner
1 month ago

He’s lost 9 out of 50 amateur fights. That’s a pretty middling record. Almost 1/5 of the women he’s faced have beaten him. I appreciate the issues with this but Khelif is clearly not an unstoppable machine. I’d like to hear from some of the women who have beaten him about the threat he supposedly carries.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 month ago
Reply to  Xaven Taner

A popular refrain in boxing is that styles make fights.
Take former WBC champion Deontay Wilder, a poor boxer with a near lethal overhand right. He made an entire career out of that until Tyson Fury managed to get off the canvas from one.
I’ve never seen this guy fight before, so I have no idea if it is a similar case of having an attribute (a much bigger punch) that erases a lack of technical ability.
Boxing has weight divisions for a reason, and it’s not because bigger boxers are better.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Xaven Taner

The flip side is that he won 41 – against women and before he reached his physical peak. That’s a 4.5 to 1 win/loss record. Middling would presumably be more, say, in the middle? Average age of an Olympic boxing medallist is 24. He’s 25 just now.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

“She”, and so since birth.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 month ago

And presumably his losses were when he was younger, against more experienced female pros?

And point is, he might have lost a few. But that’s down to technique, his physical strength would still have been far higher, and that’s the reason it sucks for women to have to face him.

Kathleen Burnett
Kathleen Burnett
1 month ago

The pro-trans lobby is driven by the notion of patriarchy; obsessively so. It is true a priori, a fact. They are beyond reason. It spills over into an unhealthy psychology that dominates their world view. Paranoia.
What’s not to like?

Xaven Taner
Xaven Taner
1 month ago

This person isn’t trans. They have a DSD with XY chromosomes but female genitalia due to a genetic abnormality in a key gene. They’ve always been socialised female and Algeria doesn’t have any trans rights.

Karen Arnold
Karen Arnold
1 month ago
Reply to  Xaven Taner

Does he have female genitalia, which are partially internal, or lack of visible male genitalia? I understand from what I have read, that he must have internal testes to produce the amount of testosterone that is present in his body.

Jean Redpath
Jean Redpath
1 month ago
Reply to  Karen Arnold

Congenital adrenal hyperplasia can also cause elevated testosterone.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago
Reply to  Jean Redpath

To what degree and to whom under which circumstances? Certainly not the same as having a set of functioning plumbs, even if they’re nestled up next to your kidneys.

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago
Reply to  Karen Arnold

Oh for god’s sake you intrusive crude disgusting people blaming people for things they have no control over. It’s called eugenics

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 month ago
Reply to  Xaven Taner

He, singular. Even schizophrenics are one person.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
1 month ago

Well, multiple personality disorder, anyway. Not the same as schizophrenia. Apologies for the pedantry.

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
1 month ago

She is a woman, was born a girl, a you going to make the ludicrous claim that the doctor who delivered her can’t tell the bloody difference

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
1 month ago

What a stupidly universal claim –obviously wrong.

David Morley
David Morley
1 month ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I’m amazed you understood it. I didn’t. I thought it was just drivel.