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The truth about the ethnic cleansing in Gaza Modern Europe was built on exodus and displacement

'Gaza Nakba 2023' (MAHMUD HAMS/AFP via Getty Images)

'Gaza Nakba 2023' (MAHMUD HAMS/AFP via Getty Images)


December 18, 2023   7 mins

We are cursed to live in a time of great historical significance: when future historians look back at 2023, the distinguishing feature of this year will likely be the recurrence of ethnic cleansing on a vast scale. In just the past few months, Pakistan has deported nearly half a million Afghan migrants, while Azerbaijan has forced 120,000 Armenians — the statelet’s entire population — from newly-conquered Karabakh, both to broad international indifference. As the UNHCR has warned, the forced expulsion — that is, the ethnic cleansing — of Gaza’s Palestinian population is now the most likely outcome of the current war. 

With no prospect of Palestinians and Israelis living together peaceably, anything short of absolute military victory unacceptable to both the Israeli government and its voters, but no meaningful plan for who will rule the uninhabitable ruins of post-war Gaza, the only realistic solution to the Palestinian problem, for Israel, is the total removal of the Palestinians. As Israel’s former Interior Minister has declared: “We need to take advantage of the destruction to tell the countries that each of them should take a quota, it can be 20,000 or 50,000. We need all two million to leave. That’s the solution for Gaza.”

Israeli officials have not been shy in promoting this outcome to a war, according to the President Isaac Herzog, for which “an entire nation… is responsible”. Israel’s agriculture minister Avi Dichter has asserted that “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” adding for emphasis that the result of the war will be “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end.” Israel’s Intelligence Ministry has published a “concept paper” proposing the expulsion of Gaza’s entire population to the Sinai desert, and Israeli diplomats have been trying to win international support for this idea. According to the Israeli press, Israeli officials have sought American backing for a different plan to distribute Gaza’s population between Egypt, Turkey, Iraq and Yemen, tying American aid to these countries’ willingness to accept the refugees. In a Wall Street Journal opinion piece, two Israeli lawmakers have instead urged Western countries — particularly Europe — to host Gaza’s population, asserting that: “The international community has a moral imperative—and an opportunity—to demonstrate compassion [and] help the people of Gaza move toward a more prosperous future.” The outcome for Gaza’s Palestinians does not appear to be in doubt: what remains to be haggled over is their final location.

The only actor that can prevent the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is the United States, and for domestic political reasons it is disinclined to do so. While the Biden administration declares it does not support “any forced relocation of Palestinians outside of the Gaza Strip”, it is not taking any action to prevent it. If the expulsion of Gaza’s 2.3 million population comes to pass, the result will be the most significant instance of ethnic cleansing in a generation, which will define Biden’s presidency for future historians. Yet outrage over such events is selective. It is not entirely true, as some Middle Eastern commentators claim, that Western complicity in the looming ethnic cleansing of Gaza highlights a lesser interest in Arab or Muslim lives: the Armenian case highlights that eastern Christians also barely flicker on the world’s moral radar. 

This week’s awarding of the right to host next year’s COP29 climate conference to Azerbaijan, just a few months after its ethnic cleansing of Karabakh, reminds us that the supposed international taboo on the practice does not, in reality, exist. When ethnic cleansing is permissible, and when it is a war crime, depends, it seems, on who is doing it, and to whom. Azerbaijan is oil-rich, useful to Europe, and able to buy favourable Western coverage; Armenia is poor, weak and friendless in the world. Similarly, the extinction of much of the Christian population of the Middle East as a result of the chaos following the Iraq War won very little international attention or sympathy: communities which survived in their ancient homelands from Late Antiquity, riding out the passage of Arab, Mamluk, Ottoman and European imperial rule, did not survive the American empire.

Yet while the moral revulsion such events excite is the natural and humane reaction, ethnic cleansing is less rare an event than the crusading military response to its Nineties occurrence in the Balkans may make us think. For the sociologist Michael Mann, ethnic cleansing is the natural consequence of modernity, “the dark side of democracy”. As the Northern Irish writer Bruce Clark observed in his excellent book Twice A Stranger on the euphemistically termed “population exchanges” between Greece and Turkey exactly a century ago, “Whether we like it or not, those of us who live in Europe or in places influenced by European ideas remain the children of Lausanne,” the 1923 peace treaty “which decreed a massive, forced population movement between Turkey and Greece”. One and a quarter million Greek Orthodox Christians were removed from Anatolia, and nearly 400,000 Muslims from Greece, in a process overseen by the Norwegian diplomat Fridtjof Nansen leading a branch of the League of the Nations which would later — perhaps ironically — evolve into today’s UNHCR. 

It was a cruel process, wrenching peoples from ancestral homelands in which they had lived for centuries, even millennia— and by the end of it half a million people were unaccounted for, presumably dead. Yet it was viewed as a great diplomatic triumph of the age, perhaps with good reason: without meaningful minorities on each side of each others’ borders to stoke tensions, Greece and Turkey have not fought a war in a century. Indeed, as late as 1993, the Realist IR scholar John Mearsheimer could propose a “Balkan Population Exchange commission” for the former Yugoslavia explicitly modelled on the 1923 precedent, asserting that “populations would have to be moved in order to create homogeneous states” and “the international community should oversee and subsidize this population exchange”. For the younger Mearsheimer, ethnic cleansing was the only viable solution to Yugoslavia’s bloody and overlapping ethnic map: “Transfer is a fact. The only question is whether it will be organized, as envisioned by partition, or left to the murderous methods of the ethnic cleansers.” Thirty years later, however, Mearsheimer condemns Israel’s planned expulsions from Gaza outright.

There is a dark irony here: the forced expulsion of peoples is an affront to liberal European values, yet it is rarely acknowledged that our modern, hitherto peaceful and prosperous Europe is built on the foundation of ethnic cleansing. Perhaps the ramifications of such a truth are too stark to bear, yet it is nevertheless the case that the peaceable post-1945 order depended on mass expulsions for its stability. Using the 1923 exchange as their explicit model, the victorious allies oversaw the forced removal of 30 million people from their homes in Central and Eastern Europe towards newly homogeneous ethnic homelands they had never seen. At the Yalta and Potsdam conferences, Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union settled upon the expulsion of 12 million Germans, more than 2 million Poles and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, Hungarians and Finns from their ancestral homes. 

As Churchill declared in Parliament in 1944, “expulsion is the method that, so far as we have been able to see, will be the most satisfactory and lasting. There will be no mixture of populations to cause endless trouble, as has been in the case of Alsace-Lorraine. A clean sweep will be made.” Only two years later, once the Cold War had begun and the Soviet Union and its vassal Poland become a rival, did Churchill fulminate against the “enormous and wrongful inroads upon Germany, and mass expulsions of millions of Germans on a scale grievous and undreamed of” by “the Russian-dominated Polish Government”. In ethnic cleansing, as in so many other things, political context is the final arbiter of morality.

But as a result, Germany has never since unsettled Europe with revanchist dreams; both Poland and Western Ukraine became, for the first time in their histories, ethnically homogenous entities. As the Ukrainian-Canadian historian Orest Subtelny has observed, the forced separation of Poles and Ukrainians, once locked in bitter ethnic conflict against each other, has led to today’s amicable relationship: “It seems that the segregation of the two peoples was a necessary precondition for the development of a mutually beneficial relationship between them. Apparently the old adage that ‘good fences make for good neighbors’ has been proven true once more.” That we have forgotten the vast scale of the forced expulsions which established Europe’s peaceful post-war order is, in a strange way, a testament to their success. 

Yet what made the mass expulsions following the First and Second World Wars broadly successful was that those expelled at least had ethnic homelands to receive them. In Greece and Turkey, the refugees fully adopted the ethnic nationalism of their new countries, in Greece providing the bedrock of later republican sympathies, and in Turkey the core support for both secular Kemalist nationalism and occasional bouts of military rule. In the newly-homogenous Poland and Ukraine, refugees shorn of their previous local roots and at times ambiguous ethnic identities fully adopted in recompense a self-identification with their new nation-states which has helped define these countries’ modern politics. The 120,000 Karabakh refugees will likely become a political bloc in tiny Armenia, affecting the country’s future political order in ways yet hard to discern. 

Israelis are themselves, for the most part, the product of 20th-century ethnic cleansings, in the Middle East as well as Europe: indeed the descendants of Middle Eastern Jews, like the Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, are the country’s most radical voices on the Palestinian Question. But the Palestinians, like the ethnic French narrator of Houellebecq’s Submission, have no Israel to go to. Unlike the 20th century displaced of Eastern and south-eastern Europe, there is no Palestinian state waiting to absorb them. Indeed, for Gaza’s population, the vast majority of whom descend from refugees from what is today Israel, Gaza was their place of refuge, and the 1948 Nakba the foundational event in their sense of Palestinian nationhood. For all that ethnic cleansing punctuates modern history, there is no precedent for such a process of double displacement, and the political consequences can not at this stage be determined. We may assume they will not be good, and an analogue to Europe’s post-war neighbourly relations will not be found. 

Egypt’s disinclination to host two million Gazan refugees is not merely a matter of solidarity, but also self-preservation: flows of embittered Palestinian refugees helped destabilise both Lebanon, where their presence set off the country’s bloody ethnic civil war, and Jordan, where they make up the demographic majority. It is doubtful too, given the recent tenor of its politics, that Europe will be eager to receive them, no matter how humanitarian the language with which Israeli officials couch their planned expulsion. Rendered stateless, driven from their homes and brutalised by war, Gaza’s refugees remain unwanted by the world, perhaps destined to become, as the Jews once were, a diaspora people forever at the mercy of suspicious hosts.

A terrible injustice for the Palestinians, their ethnic cleansing may yet provide Israel with a measure of security, even as it erodes the American sympathy on which the country’s existence depends. The broader question, perhaps, is whether or not the looming extinction of Palestinian life in Gaza, like the expulsion of Karabakh’s Armenians, heralds the beginning of a new era of ethnic cleansing, or merely the settling of the West’s unfinished accounts. Like the movements which bloodily reshaped Central Europe, Israel’s very existence is after all a product of the same nationalist intellectual ferment of fin-de-siècle Vienna. In 1923, while acknowledging its necessity, the British Foreign Secretary Lord Curzon called the Greco-Turkish population exchange “a thoroughly bad and vicious [idea] for which the world would pay a heavy penalty for a hundred years to come”. Exactly a century later, Gaza’s Palestinians look destined to become the final victims of Europe’s long and painful 20th century.


Aris Roussinos is an UnHerd columnist and a former war reporter.

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Right-Wing Hippie
Right-Wing Hippie
4 months ago

Ironically, the post-1945 post-nationalist globalist consensus legitimizes, to a degree, ethnic cleansing. Transnational elites have spent the last 75 years undermining the notion that a population has any tie, any special prerogative, to the land in which they’ve lived for generations; after all, if the indigenous population proves intractable, it’s always easier to just import another. When the Davos and Brussels crowd sneers at English patriots waving the flag of St. George or Irish rioters or French gilets jaunes as being benighted racists, and bases its governance on the principle that the demography of the nation is determined by that which best serves the ruling class’s interests, it makes it hard to argue that the same ruling class doesn’t have as much right to expel as they do to import.

Paul MacDonnell
Paul MacDonnell
4 months ago

Marvellous insight.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
4 months ago

No one has mentioned that 750,000 Germans died during the ethic cleansing

Stephanie Surface
SS
Stephanie Surface
4 months ago

2 Million

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
4 months ago

If you have a source for that figure I would be interested

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
4 months ago

Seems UnHerd doesn’t let me copy the German links. All German websites talk of 2 million deaths. I was also taught this number in school history lessons. English Wikipedia shows 500 thousand to 2.5 Millionen deaths and over 14 million “displaced” Germans

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
4 months ago

That’s almost a holocaust.
There is a good PBS documentary on the subject
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5267658/reviews

Last edited 4 months ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
4 months ago

Half my father‘s family was killed, including my grand parents…

Last edited 4 months ago by Stephanie Surface
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
4 months ago

Come to think of it there is also a vert good book, Savage Continent
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0141034513/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Last edited 4 months ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Charles Farrar
Charles Farrar
3 months ago

Well that was a butcher’s bill that had to be paid,everyone knows that.

Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
4 months ago

So Amerika will become a WASP country again ?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
4 months ago
Reply to  Mark M Breza

You can dream

D Glover
D Glover
4 months ago
Reply to  Mark M Breza

Would you agree that America really belongs to the pre-Columbian native Americans?
Edit; wait and see what Mark’s reply is before you downvote me.

Last edited 4 months ago by D Glover
Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
4 months ago

They’re hoping the ancient cultures will disappear along with the problems, replacing hundreds of distinct cultures with a bland cosmopolitanism. They may as well hope for pigs to sprout wings and fly. All they’ll end up with is constant low level civil conflict that will become increasingly expensive to suppress. Globalism is failing and fires are breaking out everywhere. They’re just putting out the fires without addressing the real issues. As such, the fires will get bigger and more numerous until one gets too big to control and burns everything to the ground.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
4 months ago

There is no injustice for the Palestinians in Gaza. The vast majority voted Hamas in and the vast majority still support Hamas according to the latest polls and surveys. They are therefore wholly complicit in the events of Oct 7: those who sow the wind reap the whirlwind. They only have themselves to blame. Had they used all the billions in international aid to develop their infrastructure instead of building tunnels and manufacturing rockets, Gaza could have been the Singapore of the mediterranean.
And incidentally, the arab population in so-called palestine is a new phenomenon. They didn’t always inhabit the land., they came to settle in the British mandate after the jews turned the malaria-ridden swamps into fertile ground.

Last edited 4 months ago by Johann Strauss
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Right, so the ethnically Arab Palestinians have no historical ties to a country that is geographically Arabian, and was once known as British Mandate of Palestine. The Israelis (a majority of whom are ethnically European) on the other hand can lay a strong historical claim to the region, despite most arriving within the last 100 years?

Last edited 4 months ago by Billy Bob
Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It is estimated that the majority of Jews in Israel today are not of European descent but were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries following 1948. And the rest of us who were once Europeans have a large Levantine genetic component and no Khazars in sight.

Ian McKinney
Ian McKinney
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

This is just factually inaccurate… A majority of Israeli Jews today are descended from those expelled from arab countries in north africa and the middle east.

There were more Jews expelled from Arab countries than there were Arabs expelled from Israel.

The most right wing elements of the current Israeli body politic are often mizrahi Jews – and given that some people are so keen to deny the Palestinians agency by blaming Israeli treatment of them for their terrorism, perhaps these middle Eastern Jews could also blame the Arabs for their expulsions and losses and thereby can be absolved of their ‘oppressor’ status.

Sam Leigh
SL
Sam Leigh
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Big factual issues here…
“The Israelis (a majority of whom are ethnically European)”
That is not correct. Israeli Jews are around 30% Ashkenazi or descending from European Jews. There is some debate on the figures due to intermarrying of different ethnic groups but it is definitely not true to say a majority are European. A huge percentage are Israeli who were kicked out of Arab countries after the UN partition.
“A country that is geographically Arabian”
Er, no it isn’t. This is pretty basic geographical knowledge I’m afraid.
“Once known as British Mandate of Palestine”
This is true but the Arab population were not called, nor referred to themselves as ‘Palestinians’. They were Arabs. As I’m sure you know it was known as the Arab-Israeli conflict until the 1970s/1980s. Palestinian identity slowly forms throughout the mid-late 20th Century but only really comes into being as an accepted ethnic identity/ ‘imagined community’ in the 1970s after the majority of the rest of the Arab world abandons the conflict realising that they couldn’t wipe out Israel and it was here to stay.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
4 months ago
Reply to  Sam Leigh

Correct. In fact on their id papers in Mandate Palestine it was Jews who were called ‘Palestinian’ (in distinction from Arabs). The Israeli Jewish newspaper now called the Jerusalem Post was the Palestine Post before independence.

Last edited 4 months ago by Judy Englander
Marcus Corbett
MC
Marcus Corbett
3 months ago
Reply to  Sam Leigh

What was the reason for their conclusion that they could not dismantle the state of Israel. ?

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
3 months ago
Reply to  Sam Leigh

Re ‘A country…that is geographically Arabian’ and the reply ‘Er no it isn’t… afraid’.
I’ll leave it to Moshe Dayan to supply the sentimental nonsense :
Moshe Dayan
“What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.”
Err…….

Jane Anderson
JA
Jane Anderson
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The area is the mediterranean Levante region, not Arabian. The gulf states are Arabian. Before the mandate the West Bank was part of Jordan; before that part of the Ottoman Empire.
60 % of Israeli jews are either Sephardic or Mizrahi – and even many of those that came from Europe had sephardic or Mizrahi ancestors. Jewish peoples have been making their way back to the Holy Land for centuries; in between expulsions from other regions and countries. The first Zionist settlers arrived in the late 1890s.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

And coming from Europe they brought with them the latest agricultural technology , so obviously that invalidated the claims of the Palestinians already there . Oh sorry Johann has magicked them away .

Lewis Lorton
LL
Lewis Lorton
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

The Palestinians that were ‘already there’ were, in the main, not the owners of the land – and they weren’t Palestinians, they self-identified as Arabs and it was the Jews who were the ‘Palestinians.’ The land was actually and legally owned by absentee-landlords who lived elsewhere and collected rent – in a helter-skelter way.
The Jewish Committee and other organizations purchased land from these land-owners between 1888 and 1940’s. When the Arab countries attacked the emerging state in 1948, the Arabs fled from the new state and their lands passed to the Israel.
Palestine was more than a casual description of a large area was part of the Ottoman Empire. When Jordan was in control of the West Bank, it did not even attempt to absorb the land let alone form a Palestinian state; the West Bank was an discomforting part of Jordan until Jordan happily gave it back to the oversight of Israel.


Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The Jews can lay a 3,000-year history, but don’t let that get in the way. They made a first-world country out of desert, and remain surrounded by people who lend very little to the civilized world, outside of those nations that were blessed with substantial oil deposits.
Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria were all created in the 20th century, right along with Israel. But no Palestine. Why not, one might wonder. Oh, yeah; because their leadership prevented it.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Exactly!!!

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
3 months ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Clearly the solution is to simply eradicate the so called Palestinians with lessons well learned from previous experience.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Um, if you are speaking historically, the Jewish People have ‘been around’ the middle east areas FOR CENTURIES, and were expelled/driven out/moved-whatever term you want to use, back and forth.
The palestinians are the makers of their own sorrow from their own bad choices, and they keep doing it!
Unless you are one of those dolts who blames Trump for everything…

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Palestine/Israel is not “Geographically Arabian”.
There are the geographic regions of Arabia and the Levant which are separate, and by every historical definition of these regions, Palestine is in the latter and not the former.

Jacquie 0
Jacquie 0
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

If the world didn’t hate its Jews so much, there would be no need for a Jewish State in the ancestral lands that the Jews were ethnically cleansed from. Ironic no? As for Arab ‘Palestinians’, Arafat made that name up – there is no such thing. The clue is in the word ‘Arab’. Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula, not from the Levant. I recommend a map.

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
3 months ago
Reply to  Jacquie 0

I recommend ethical awareness based on an Israeli hero’s observation:
Moshe Dayan
“What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.”

S M
S M
3 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Yours seems to be the only voice of fact and reason.
Israelis are ethnically mostly European/Russian. You just have to look at the roots of the current government. The current UK ambassador is Georgian with her striking Eastern European accent, its unmissable.
Clearly nobody on here has read about Ben Gurions diaries of how intricately the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians began, village by village.
They are Palestinian too. They do not refer to themselves as Arab it is the Israelis who like to undermine their nationality and refer to them as Arabs. To dehumanise their existence. The existence of people who have lived there for centuries. I wonder why DNA testing is banned in Israel.

Rasmus Fogh
RF
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Not all wrong. But it is also true that the Jews came to a land already inhabited by a different people, forced the guarantor power out by terrorism, took the land by conquest, and ethnically cleansed most of the original inhabitants by force. They have sowed their share of wind, too. Both sides want all the land for themselves. If I have to choose I favour Israel, but that does not mean you can close your eyes to half the facts.

D Walsh
D Walsh
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

How many hamas members do you want in your town, because that’s Israels plan

sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Proof? If that’s not too inconvenient for you…

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
4 months ago
Reply to  sue vogel

Destroying the housing stock in Gaza suggests the Israelis don’t want them there. What kind of ‘proof’ do you expect ?

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

With that logic, it would seem that Hamas’ plan is for Palestinians to vacate Gaza

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
3 months ago

Nope the guys who did the massacre in Israel aren’t in the houses being bombed . So the Israelis must have a reason for making Gaza uninhabitable .
Barbara Spectre will be demanding Europe takes in the refugees , for its own good don’t you know .

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
4 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

I will simplify the issue for you. How many Palestinians – None

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
4 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

They are already here plotting atrocities in the West. Godspeed to Israel and may they drive the savage Hamas terrorists away from the river and into the sea.

Mitchito Ritter
Mitchito Ritter
4 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Israel’s new Arab sphere buddies in the Saudi royal family and their assorted holdings like the Kingdom of Jordan bordering PalestineIsrael surely want no scruffy Islamist Revival ruffling the Saudi and Arab Emirates elite institution-educated feathers and sheepskins. Nor horning in on the family’s claim on the Ummah’s collective wealth.
The symmetry of institutional and ruling class corruption that trumps the Abrahamic Faiths’ various evolutionary steps is impressive. Each step forward and devolutionary regression came as primal traumas to any and all giving up human child, animal and precious metal forms of Sacrifice (see under Shaheed Deeds in the various histories of Islamic Caliphates and Conquest like the 400 year Ottoman Turkish control of large chunks of the seas and Muddle Eastern continents). As well as the earlier and continuing assorted Christian and even Judaic imperial impositions which can be accomplished with far more bang for the buck and treasure deposited into Bank Secrecy Laws and Wealth Management Portfolios managed by only the highest ethical standards (if ya believe that I’ve got some Phoenician postage stamps to sell ya…) via high tech gimcrackery.
https://www.darkreading.com/cyberattacks-data-breaches/shadowy-hack-for-hire-group-behind-sprawling-web-of-global-cyberattacks
What we do about DISPLACEMENT will be up to all of us via meaningful consultation. If the Israelis think their woes can be settled without the joint settlement with Palestinians….as we say out in the provinces and Trump’s Outer boroughs: “Fuh-gedd About It!”
Also, if the rest of the world thinks this is a problem limited to the Muddle East, they have not considered how the Wall Street-London-Benelux-Brussels-Bonn-Frankfurt-Geneva-Zurich-Beijing-Shanghai-Singapore-Astana-Moscow and those Caribbean Cayman Treasure Islands currently impinges on all of our collective risk of MASS DISPLACEMENT for the benefit of a tiny networked group of foreign investors. And I’m not talking about the IRS!
Search online for the talks in many languages and translated to English by such academics who’ve been studying Migratory Labor Patterns and Housing Market Dysfunctions which have caused the only safe haven for hoarded global monetarist wealth to be kept safe from monetary devaluation via inflation, corruption etc such as Saskia Sassen and Nobel Economist at Columbia Joseph Stiglitz in this yet to be theatrically released Swedish production (in the English language):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6juSABUfnUg
PUSH – ( some excerpts from the documentary )”
2,018 views Sep 1, 2021
“Some excerpts from the documentary “PUSH” (2019) (full doc @ “Push | TVO Docs” on YouTube) Exploring why people cannot be allowed to live in cities… The high cost of housing and global investment funds that push people to poverty and strip them of a fundamental human right. Producers: Fredrik Gertten, Margarete Jangard Director: Fredrik Gertten From Knowledge Network Aired Feb. 2, 2021 Full documentary can be seen here “Push | TVO Docs” on YouTube: ”
Mitch RitterParadigm Sifters, Code Shifters, PsalmSong Chasers
Lay-Low Studios, Ore-Wa (Refuge of Atonement Seekers)
Media Discussion ListLookseeInnerEarsHearHere

Last edited 4 months ago by Mitchito Ritter
R.I. Loquitur
R.I. Loquitur
4 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Israel’s plan is to kill all Hamas members.

Paul MacDonnell
Paul MacDonnell
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

This is tendentous nonsense. Jews were buying up land (legally) in Palestine since the Turkish mandate in the late 19th century. The origin of Israel’s borders is in their response to unprovoked Attacks by local Arabs (many murders right up to the 1940s) and, eventually when they acquired statehood in 1947, from surrounding Arab states who saw the opportunity to carve up Palestine between them. This response saw Israel seizing land gained, for the most part though not in every case, as a result of conflict initiated by Arabs. The motives of the Jews was always safety. The Palestinian Arabs as a victimized people is the catspaw invention of European anti-semites who wanted to tie an anvil around the ankle of the Jewish state which they hoped would sink into a sea of Arab hostility.

Hence, for example, the absurdity of hereditary refugee status.

Last edited 4 months ago by Paul MacDonnell
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago

Sorry and all, but I stand by it. I would not deny your individual facts, but you cannot get around the point that the Palestinians (be they a people or not) were living in that land, and that someone else took it over and forced them out. Their resentment is understandable, if not justified.

If I may be permitted to quote Moshe Dayan:.

“Let us not cast the blame on the murderers today. Why should we declare their burning hatred for us? For eight years they have been sitting in the refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we have been transforming the lands and the villages, where they and their fathers dwelt, into our estate.”.

Alan Osband
AO
Alan Osband
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

That needs elucidating . What murderers ?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/moshe-dayan-s-eulogy-for-roi-rutenberg-april-19-1956
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan%27s_eulogy_for_Ro%27i_Rothberg
Apparently this speech is famous in Israeli history. It was the eulogy of Moshe Dayan for Ro’i Rothberg, a kibbutz security officer who had been ambushed and killed close to the border by Arabs coming across from Gaza.

Rasmus Fogh
RF
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Duplicate. Removed.

Last edited 4 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

And where Jews dwelt for centuries before them. Right.

Stevie K
Stevie K
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Great to see some quality good faith debate being attempted by you two. I also like your phrase “I would not deny your individual facts”. It’s a respectful way of acknowledging valid points without being locked into the overall conclusion being suggested.

Hazel Gazit
Hazel Gazit
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Your first mistake is thinking this is a land dispute. It isn’t. It’s about religion and a desire to see the whole world Judenrein.

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
3 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

If you may ‘be permitted’. Please make many choke on these words.

Ron Kean
Ron Kean
4 months ago

Buying land is a little known fact. Large land owners, sheiks had sharecroppers on their property. When they sold their property they took the cash knowing the sharecroppers would fight the Jews and say it was their land. It was a twofold win for the sheiks.
There are also unresolved questions about neighboring nations warning Israeli Arabs to leave their homes rather than get hurt in the invasion crossfire as opposed to Israelis pushing them to move or Israeli Arabs fearing what Israelis would do to them if Jews won.
Also unmentioned is Mark Twain’s description of the land in the 1800’s being nearly unpopulated except for Jews who depended on European largess to survive and Arabs scratching out a living with goats, sheep and some agriculture. When Jews started to come in large numbers, Syrian and Egyptian immigrants flooded in looking for work.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

You and Billy Bob might do well to read the 1st chapter of Robert Spencer’s book: “The Palestinian Delusion: The Catastrophic History of the Middle East Peace Process The Catastrophic History of the Middle East Peace Process“. That way you will get a much better idea of who and how many different peoples occupied the land covered by the British Mandate that was previously conquered and ruled by the Ottoman empire for many centuries. You will be surprised at just how few arabs lived in the area prior to the period after the 1st world war. The area was in total decay with towns and villages dying off, and the land either being mosquito ridden swaps or desert. The book is actually very illuminating.
As for the Israelis the majority are no longer ethnically European, and not by a long way. Perhaps you should visit the place. Ashkenazi jews are in a minority now.

As for the Israelis wanting to occupy all the land, is that why the unilaterally left Gaza in 2005? And is it why of all the multiple peace proposals that have been made, the Palestinians rejected every one, even though they could easily have got 95% of what they were asking. Further, after partition in 1948 was it the Israelis who tried to occupy more land (despite the fact that they sure didn’t get everything they were asking for, including the whole of Jerusalem and the areas that contained their holiest of sites) or was it the Arab countries on every side that tried to smother Israel at its birth and throw its inhabitants into the sea?

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
3 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Are the Ashkenazis a minority in the government ?

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

The Jews did not take all the land by conquest. It was partitioned, first by Britain which gave east Palestine to Transjordan (to this day the majority of Jordanians identify as Palestinian); the remainder was partitioned again by the UN which gave the Jews a tiny slice of land. When it was invaded by the surrounding Arab nations immediately after this partition, Israel won more land and more defensible borders. But the country remained very small – the size of New Jersey or Wales.

Last edited 4 months ago by Judy Englander
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

All true. But you cannot get around the fact that Palestinians were living there, and were either expelled as the effect of war, or made into a minority in a Jewish nation state. If it had happened to my family in my home country I think I would have a right to be upset – even if we had had the opportunity to remain where we were and live under Jewish law..

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Sure, and just as the Jews living in America have a right to be upset by the ‘protestors’ who are blatantly pro-hamas and loudly cry to ‘gas the Jews’…to people, in a country where they ARE resident already.
Everything for the poor, pitiful palestinians…NOPE!!!

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Rasmus. You are like the small frog I found drowning in my swimming pool this morning. I scooped him up and put him on the ground. Best you take the life line being offered by many and stop your futile argument. Billy Bob is too far gone.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago

Thanks for the offer 😉 . FWIW I side with Israel, and I think that the biggest high-level obstacle to any kind of ‘solution’ is the Palestinian refusal to accept anything short of complete victory, long term. But I still think that the Palestinians suffered an injustice and have a right to be upset about it – even if you cannot repair it without causing even further damage to other groups.

Just for clarity, so we can see where we disagree – how would you describe the situation?

B M
B M
4 months ago

No acknowledgement of the injustice to the people who were ethnically cleansed from what is now Israel. With that mentality, and what’s happening now, the Gazans are completely justified in trying to kill as many Israelis as possible. What other option is there for them? They are being killed in their thousands right now.
That’s the reality you can deny all you want.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  B M

No, they are not justified. The injustice is beyond dispute, but the fact that you have suffered an injustice does not give you the right to massacre as many of the guilty people as possible.

While we are here, can you answer a question for me? The deal once discussed was ‘land for peace’. Peace means that you stop fighting to get more of your demands, and that you stop your friends and allies from continuing on your behalf. Have the Palestinians ever made a credible offer of peace? In return for what? And how can you expect Israel to make concessions if all they can expect in return is continuing war?

Hazel Gazit
Hazel Gazit
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

If the Jews had intended to remove all the Arabs from Israel, how do you explain that almost 21% of the population of Israel is Arab?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Hazel Gazit

Did I put it like that? If so I was wrong. My impression (please correct me) is that Jewish Israelis generally feel that they have a right to all the land from the river to the sea, and that it would be at least sort of nice if they got it. So far, symmetrical with the Palestinians. Also that the settler movement (with tacit support from Netanyahu)) is systematically trying to pressure the Arabs out of the West Bank and replace them with Jews. But yes, it seems that Israel would be satisfied with having a resolutely Jewish state but could accept a lot of non-Jews in it, and also that a lot of Israelis would be happy with giving up the claim to part of the land in return for a stable peace. And here the Palestinians do not seem to reciprocate.

Can I get away with this, or would you correct me?

Last edited 4 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
Daniel Kornitzer
Daniel Kornitzer
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

As a Jewish Israeli, I believe your analysis is spot on.

Hazel Gazit
Hazel Gazit
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I’ll agree with your analysis.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Hazel Gazit

I answered that one, but the answer has been disappeared.

Last edited 4 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
Douglas Hainline
Douglas Hainline
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

As World War II began, Trotsky noted that “All sides lie a great deal.” This did not, and does not, mean that all sides in a conflict are necessarily morally equivalent. But where emotions run high, trying to determine objective truth will win you few friends.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Who was known as King of the Jews and where did he live? Yes, him.
We’re about to celebrate his birth and he lived in The Holy Land, now Israel, formerly known as Palestine, another biblical name. That makes Israeli Jews and their descendants ethnically Palestinian.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Much inaccuracy in what you write. All of the land upon which Jews settled was bought from absentee landlords. Arabs left in 1948 both due to actions by Israelis but also, in large part, either to escape the violence or at the behest of Arab governments which assured them they could return after all the Jews were slaughtered. Israel was willing to forego some of the territory they wanted for a peaceful state. The Arabs were not so in my opinion during these 75 years they have lost any right to anything through their rejectionism and violence. But thanks for your vote!

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
4 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

‘came’ i.e were kicked out of Muslim countries across North Africa and the Middle East….Since 1948 that includes 140,000 from Algeria leaving a population of under 50, 75000 from Egypt leaving a population of less than 100, 13500 from Iraq (leaving zero population), 5000 in Lebanon, 38000 from Libya, 30000 from Syria, 105000 from Tunisia, 63000 from Yemen and 265000 from Morocco (leaving only a couple of 100). Jewish populations in Egypt go back thousands of years to time of Exodus, and in North Africa to the early Middle Ages. There are basically no Jews in North Africa and the Middle East outside of Israel. 

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

No amount of money can create a Singapore in a region benighted by pre-modern superstition. The real culpability for this war lies with the governments and NGOs that have poured in all this money without any stipulation about what is taught in the schools. UNRWA itself presides over many schools that are little more than training camps for mass murderers.

It’s disgraceful that our taxes are spent in this way. We need to put a stop to it.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
4 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Israel has just given more money to fundamentalist, rightist schools. Same here.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
4 months ago

What is a ‘fundamentalist, rightist school’? What does ‘same here’ mean?

Paul T
Paul T
4 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

He forgot to include “running-dogs”. That would have helped me it make more sense.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago

WHAT are you talking about? I have NEVER heard of Israelis teaching their children to kill palestinians. There were many palestinians working daily, coming from, and going to, their homes in gaza, up until the Oct. 7 madness.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
4 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Indeed. The funding of terror against itself, by the West. Add to that Pakistan, where huge sums of laundered money (via UK restaurants, takeaways) arrive to support proscribed organisations.
They’re laughing at us.

Stephen Thean
Stephen Thean
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

When I looked at the map of Gaza, that was my first reaction that it could have been the Singapore of the Middle East! The land area is roughly half the size of Singapore with just under half the population of Singapore and has full access to the Mediterranean Sea.
I share the same idea as you, why spent all the funds on building tunnels and rockets instead of building up the land, infrastructure and economy to improve the lives of the Gazans.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  Stephen Thean

Exactly. I’ve said that many times. Hamas has no interest in improving the quality of life of the average Palestinian. Their raison d’etre is to eliminate Israel, beyond that no plans.

Last edited 4 months ago by Clare Knight
sue vogel
SV
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I’d wager far fewer support them now.

marianna chambless
marianna chambless
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

(1) The Palestinians were there before “the jews turned the malaria ridden swamps into fertile ground.” (2) There would have been no Oct 7 had it not been for the way the Israeli government has persecuted the Palestinians during my lifetime (I’m 81). For years I have listened to Israelis saying the Palestinians don’t accept the existence of Israel. Now I think it was just a very clever tactic that they used to disguise the fact that it was they who wanted the Palestinians out. I think the author of this article may be right, and it saddens me at the plight of a people who are doing nothing more than fighting for independence and the opportunity to have the same rights and privileges as the Jewish population does, and it angers me at the injustice. Should it come to pass, the Palestinians will suffer even more, but the fall out will be on the U.S., who stood by and did nothing other than contribute to more arms to Israel so that they could continue their death and destruction in the most efficient way. Joe Biden’s presidency will be remembered for this.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I don’t believe polls conducted in the west. I’m not about to believe polls from Gaza.

Susan Matthews
Susan Matthews
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

A Singapore with no airport, no access to the sea and no open borders?

Y Way
Y Way
4 months ago
Reply to  Susan Matthews

Would they have open borders if they full stop the bombing of Israel? Maybe? If they started building and stopped warring? Maybe?

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
4 months ago
Reply to  Susan Matthews

What in heavens name are you talking about. No access to the sea? What do you think beaches on the mediterranean are? No airport. How about build one instead of building tunnels and rockets. No open borders. How about not lobbing rockets into Israel on the one side, and trying to destabilize Egypt on the other. If the Palestinians in Gaza behaved like normal civilized people, they would be sitting on a very nice piece of prime real estate.

jules Ritchie
jules Ritchie
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I imaine that Israel would never allow an airport. Terrorists flying off to all our democratic countries with intentions of blowing us up?

Lewis Lorton
Lewis Lorton
4 months ago
Reply to  Susan Matthews

The reason they don’t have an airport any more, or open borders or unfettered sea access is because, since 1948 they have consistently shown that they will use all of this access to import weapons to be used to attempt to eradicate Israel.
And, if you could read, you could know that.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
4 months ago
Reply to  Susan Matthews

no access to the sea. – Gaza has some very nice beaches. no open borders – many Gazans had jobs in Israel. The Southern border with Egypt was strongly policed because the Egyptians didn’t want all those “troublemakers” (even without Hamas) upsetting their own people.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Nobody wants the average Palestinian not even Hamas.

Alan Gore
Alan Gore
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Somewhere in Central Asia there is a fertile but tiny populated river valley that could be purchased as a New Paestine, to which the Palestinians could be relocated. Though doing this would not neb cheap, consider how much the world has already poured into Palestinian aid ($5.2 billion from the US alone), most stolen by Hamas.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Gore

And they still use carts pulled by donkeys.

Clare Knight
CK
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I’m not sympathetic to the Palestinians, however, I do find it unrealistic to believe it was possible to to do polls and take surveys in the middle of a war.

Malcolm Robbins
Malcolm Robbins
4 months ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

BS

Bronwen Saunders
Bronwen Saunders
4 months ago

“Rendered stateless, driven from their homes and brutalised by war … unwanted by the world … destined to become … forever at the mercy of suspicious hosts” – describes perfectly the situation of those Jews who miraculously survived the Second World War.
Unlike the Palestinians, however, they picked up the pieces of their shattered lives and moved on. They became farmers, businessmen, teachers, university professors. They married and had children and put a lot of effort into ensuring that their children were well educated and married well. They did not squander their intellectual, emotional and material resources on fighting to regain what had been irretrievably lost. And they did not bequeath their refugee status – and with it all their rancour and resentment – to the coming generations. And the same can be said of all the other expelled peoples mentioned in this article. There is nothing unique about the injustice once suffered by the Palestinians. What is unique is the determination of the Arab world, supported by the UN, to keep them victims in perpetuity.

Helen Hughes
Helen Hughes
4 months ago

So are you saying there’s something inherently wrong with Arab people?

Hazel Gazit
Hazel Gazit
4 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

Helen, I think you have to look at the common denominator in all the failed or poor states in the Middle East.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
4 months ago

Many of the Arab states have recognised the state of Israel either unconditionally or as defined by its pre-1967 borders. The Hamas attack on October 7th was probably made to pre-empt a peace agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia. The main antagonist of Israel and the sponsor of Hamas is Iran, not an Arab country.

Alan Osband
AO
Alan Osband
4 months ago

You have left a few teeny things out . Holocaust survivors rightly got huge individual pay outs from the post ww2 west German government . (Indeed paintings are still being taken down from museum walls and given to the descendants of Jews who willingly sold them after the 1929 crash ) Has Israel been paying reparations to Arabs who lost their lands post 1948?

Y Way
Y Way
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

But, have any other peoples ever gotten reparations? No. What about the millions and millions of East Europeans who had to flee the Soviets after their belongings were confiscated and they were threatened with deportation to Siberia. It was Russia that did this to those people. Russia never paid. And we are not bombing Russia or Russians in revenge. So, what is your point?

Last edited 4 months ago by Y Way
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
4 months ago

They did not squander their intellectual, emotional and material resources on fighting to regain what had been irretrievably lost
So why were they so determined to return to the Middle East?

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
4 months ago

Because they couldn’t trust Western nations to keep them safe from antisemites. Looks like they were correct judging by the amount of Westerners cheering on the slaughter of Jews.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago

Exactly!!!

Y Way
Y Way
4 months ago

My grandma escaped with her family from the Communists. She was in deportation camps for five years waiting for settlement after WW2.

She never once looked back. She missed her homeland, but she forged ahead. In the US.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
4 months ago

The difference between what Jews were able to accomplish and what the Palestinians didn’t, is that Palestinians are Muslims. Islam is violent and destructive not creative.

Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
4 months ago

I believe it was King Hussein of Jordan who said that ‘Jordan is Palestine, and Palestine is Jordan’ in 1981, King Abdullah having said the same in 1948. What happened when Jordan/Palestine foolishly joined the other Arab states in invading Israel is that they (Jordan/Palestine) lost, and in doing so lost the territory they had previously had west of the Jordan. Start a war, lose it, lose some territory. Plus ca change.
The point being that technically speaking there is a Palestinian homeland for them to go to, with a Palestinian majority. OK, so the Jordanian royal family don’t want them but the position is analogous to at least the contemporary Armenians, or to eg Poles or Germans in 1945.
There’s certainly been a deafening silence on the matter from Jordan since Oct. 7th.

Fafa Fafa
Fafa Fafa
4 months ago

“Palestinian”, similarly to “Iraqi” etc, is the result of nation states created on the drawing board of the dying British Empire in the early 20th century. Palestinian Arabs could have been easily assimilated into Jordan or Egypt, perhaps as part of a “population exchange”, the kind that took place between Greeks and Turks for instance, or later after WW2 between Poland and Germany, etc.

One need to wonder why, after so many decades, is that generations of Palestinians are born, grow up, live and die in refugee camps. Why haven’t they emigrated to some other Arab country, for instance.

Several years ago I asked the same question from an Egyptian I came to know well for a while. He said that when Israel was founded the Palestinian arabs who left the land were herded into refugee camps. Well, so far nothing unusual. But how is that still there are refugee camps, 60+ year later? How come there are whole generations who grew up in refugee camps? 

Said Mohammed: The Arab nations have decided, and apparently stuck with that decision, that in order to KEEP THE CAUSE ALIVE, there should be always homeless Palestinians. The Cause of course is to get rid of Israel. How is the Cause being kept alive? To this day, a child born in any Arab country to parents labelled “Palestinian”, who themselves might have born in that same country, will not get citizenship of that country. If the Palestinian Arabs were allowed to settle down and become citizens of Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Kuwait, whatever, then they would assimilate and disappear forever as a separate entity, being that they are simply Arabs, living in Arab lands. If that were the case, the Cause of Getting Rid of Israel would be seriously weakened because there would be no millions of suffering people reminding the world daily of the Arab plight. 

I have heard from some people that the Palestinian Arabs are not welcome in Arabic states because they are an especially loathsome subspecies of the human race but Mohammed’s seems like a much more plausible explanation. I.e. it being a long standing policy decision, cold and calculating, using the deliberate extension of suffering of millions. 

A truly Machiavellian plan. On the surface, thru the picture and writings presented to the world, there is the poor, suffering “Palestinian Nation”, capable of making the hearts of the bleedinghearts bleed like there is no tomorrow. What remains unexamined is the fact that the “Palestinian Nation” exists solely because a Palestinian Arab has more chance to become the citizen of the Tuvalu Islands than of any Arab country. And the reason for that is the the Arab “Cause” needs the suffering of the “Palestinian Nation” more than anything else in order for it to be kept alive. It is as if the “Palestinian Nation” had been made to exists as one big suicide nation-bomb by the muftis of the Arabic world, designed to grow bigger and bigger and eventually explode one day and bring the whole house down in the Middle East, burying Israel under the rubble. 

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Fafa Fafa

That may well have been true 50+ years ago. But over time the Palestinians seem to have coalesced into a people with a shared identity, a shared grievance, and a lot of bloody-mindedness. Whatever the Macchiavellian plans of yesteryear, is it not reasonable to say that right now the Arab countries would not want to take them in because it would cause dangerous instability, not as a mere anti-Israel move. After all, a large influx of Palestinians caused civil war in Jordan (Black September) and Lebanon.

Last edited 4 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Fafa Fafa

Given their fairly recent history as “house guests” firstly of Jordan; came Black September and, shall we say, a certain lack of manners, and they were booted out and went to Lebanon, where, let’s say, their manners let them down again… Would you want to be third time unlucky?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
4 months ago
Reply to  Fafa Fafa

I read this argument many decades ago… and so it has come to pass. Thank you for mentioning it. The Palestinians are expedient to the Arabs.

Thor Albro
Thor Albro
4 months ago
Reply to  Fafa Fafa

The same dynamic exists in welfare ghettos elsewhere. First you hook people with free housing, food, health care and a monthly stipend. Then you a) get their vote forever (and their descendants), b) you get to proudly show off your superior humanity, c) they get a permanent waiver on personal responsibility. Everyone wins. Thank you Fafa for this observation which is as close to the inside truth about the Palestinians as anything.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
4 months ago

Very interesting article, especially coming after Maersheimer‘s interview with Freddie. The author forgot to mention the ethnic cleansing in 1944 of up to 400 thousand Tartars from Crimea. Supposedly thousands were already killed in transfer to Central Asia and up to 100 thousand died from the harsh conditions, once settled in the Soviet Union. Their homes and lands were taken away or destroyed by Stalin. Seems they followed the same pattern as the ethnic cleansed Poles, who lived around Lviv (former Lemberg), whose villages and houses were burnt to the ground and then sent by cattle cars to Silesia, where they had to settle in the empty or bombed out cities of the expelled Germans.
Interesting how Maersheimer was finding his inner moral self, when he talked about Israel committing crimes against humanity as his younger self seems to have been all in favour of the resettling of whole populations. Maybe we can have another interview with him and Freddie might enquire, why he changed his mind.

Last edited 4 months ago by Stephanie Surface
chris sullivan
chris sullivan
4 months ago

Um, just to play the naive enquirer – what other options have the Palestinians left the Israelis ??

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
4 months ago
Reply to  chris sullivan

A two state solution with a large demilitarised zone similar to the Koreas?

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Are you serious? Like the Litani line and UN Resolution 1701 in Lebanon? And how wide is this demilitarized zone going to be? Wider than you can fire a rocket over, or wider than you can dig a tunnel under? And on whose side of the Green Line? And where will all the displaced people who live in that demilitarized zone go? And what about all the Arabs living in Israel and the Jews living in Palestine – do they get to stay, or do they need to move over to their side of the line?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  Rafi Stern

What “Jews living in Palestine”…do you mean the hostages, if any are still, hopefully, alive?

Rafi Stern
RS
Rafi Stern
4 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

No actually I was talking about Jews living in the West Bank.

Francisco Javier Bernal
Francisco Javier Bernal
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

So they can keep digging tunnels and firing skuds… You cannot trust Islamic Jihad and Hamas to behave like rational people.

As for Egypt and Jordan absorbing the transient Arab population, it will probably never happen. It is politically useful to have a bogeyman called Israel to blame for their own incompetence.

D Glover
D Glover
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

They’d have to surround Gaza and the West Bank with two DMZ’s. That’s a lot to fit into a very small country.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
4 months ago
Reply to  D Glover

Surely a Palestinian state would encompass both as part of a single land mass? A single, heavily armed DMZ would suffice. Give Israel a decade to build up as many defences as it sees fit then leave the Palestinians to it

glyn harries
GH
glyn harries
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The problem in the West Bank though is that the ultra-nationalists / Zionists, mainly American, want all of it. From the River to the Sea, Greater Judea. Palestine needs de-nationalism-ing.

B T
B T
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You can’t be serious.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
4 months ago
Reply to  B T

Why not? Would you rather a porous border and freedom of movement between the two states?

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

We already tried closing the borders. It is called “The Siege on Gaza” and “The Apartheid Wall”. And it failed spectacularly on 7th October.

Helen Hughes
Helen Hughes
4 months ago
Reply to  chris sullivan

From where I’m standing it doesn’t look like it’s the Palestinians offering options here….

sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

An example of their tendency to expect to get without having to ask and when that doesn’t happen, to kick off in toddler-like rage.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
4 months ago
Reply to  sue vogel

How do you negotiate with the Israelis? The PA in the West Bank has done everything asked of it, even assisting the IDF in naming and locating potential terrorists. Their reward for this is ever increasing numbers of violent evictions of Palestinians to make way for an ever increasing number of Jewish settlements.
If Israel isn’t going to behave in good faith when the Palestinians are peaceful why wouldn’t they resort to violence?

Last edited 4 months ago by Billy Bob
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You are a terrorist sympathiser. Why don’t you drop the ‘reasonable’ facade and just admit it.

Bernard Brothman
Bernard Brothman
4 months ago

I hope that following Hamas destruction, Israel can determine a way to de-Hamas the population and then leave and let Gaza rebuild.
Do the Gazans want another war like this one? Their cities are moon scape like. So much aid went to building tunnels and arming Hamas. Was it worth it?

Edwin Blake
Edwin Blake
4 months ago

Isreal, or rather Likud, never wanted a two state outcome. Hamas, whom they implicitly supported (look it up, if you like), suited them perfectly. Now they can rid Gaza of Palestinians and settle ethnically pure Isrealis there. They will slowly clear out the west bank and there you have the final solution to the Palistinian question.
So it goes.

Last edited 4 months ago by Edwin Blake
Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
4 months ago
Reply to  Edwin Blake

There is no such thing as an ethnically pure Israeli. That is about as ridiculous as to talk about an ethnically pure American.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
4 months ago
Reply to  Edwin Blake

You’d think the Israelis would be rather uncomfortable with ethnic cleansing and forced deportations what with their rather recent history

Eleanor Barlow
Eleanor Barlow
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

People do what they feel they have to do in order to survive. When their backs are against the wall, they will lash out hard. Israel has been under threat from the Arab world ever since 1948 because of the continued existence of the people who call themselves Palestinian. Incidentally, there has been never been Palestine as an independent sovereign state in all of recorded history. The name itself originates from a term the Romans used to describe the region, which the British government adopted when it took over from the Ottoman empire at the end of WW1.

Judy Englander
JE
Judy Englander
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

And there it is, yet again: rubbing the Israelis’ noses in the Holocaust.

sue vogel
SV
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I expect they would, if it were going on

jane baker
jane baker
4 months ago
Reply to  Edwin Blake

Netanyahu,dodgy used car salesman used the term Amalek in that speech he made in reference to the Palestinians. He couldn’t have made it any clearer. This is in the Old Testament. God tells the Israelites to kill ALL the Amalekites,women,children,babies too,even their animals and not leave one alive. He TOLD us what he intended to do and he’s doing it. Too bad so few people have read The Bible now that few picked up on the reference.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
4 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

Difference is that Netanyahu has poor support in Israel.

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
4 months ago

The uncompromising war against Hamas has wider support than Netanyahu. The massacre of all the Gazans – men, women, children, animals and burning all their belongings – has no public support, and Netanyahu never suggested doing that. According to recent opinion polls a majority of Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza approve of doing that to Jews though.

sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago

Jane Baker has ignored the fact that Hamas embeds itself among its civilian population – one of its leaders, Fathi Hamad, is on record as boasting that women, the elderly and children are the best human shields and Its leaders assert (from their safe haven in Qatar) that Gazans actually want to be martyrs – but I doubt that anyone ever asked them. Nevertheless she feels entitled to share her ignorance with the rest of us.

Rafi Stern
Rafi Stern
4 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

In Jewish culture, Amalek is the archetype of irrational Jew-hatred. Just like labelling Nazi Germany as Amalek did not mandate killing every German citizen and allowed peaceful and friendly relations with Germany after the Nazis’ defeat, Labelling Hamas as Amalek means that he intends to eradicate Hamas, not kill all the citizens of Gaza.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
4 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

Too bad such references are available to be used. No wonder people stopped reading it.

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
4 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

I suggest you investigate the traditional Jewish understanding of Amalek. You may know your Bible but you clearly don’t know much about Judaism.

sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

Good use of the analogy by Netanyahu, too. You, however, are making the easy-thinking, facile mistake of taking him literally because of your predisposition to take sides in something you appear to know very little about. Were you asleep during and for days after the October 7th atrocities? Did they somehow pass you by? It appears so, because the Amalekites in this scenario are Hamas & its ghastly allies, who would slaughter every last Jew/Christian/other Israeli, man, woman and child, first in Israel and, as they promise, all over the world, and then they’d come for you…..

Julian Farrows
JF
Julian Farrows
4 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

The Amalekites started it according to the OT.

Anna Clare Bryson
Anna Clare Bryson
4 months ago
Reply to  Edwin Blake

It is really amazing how people pontificate about Israel-Palestine with apparently no knowledge or no memory of even quite recent history. Remember 2005? Disengagement from Gaza, and forcible removal of all settlements? Ring a bell? Who was the PM – any guesses? Ariel Sharon, remember him? Which party? Look it up if you like…
Undoubtedly, Netanyahu’s policy of playing Hamas off against the PA ultimately misfired (though of course, had the military and intelligence responded less complacently to reports of what turned out to be preparations for Oct 7 we would hardly be having this conversation), but the conviction that moves towards a two-state “solution” were dangerous was based on post-disengagement experience rather than some plan for ethnic cleansing. Try to spell Israelis right too – it gives a less tinhat impression.

Robin Whittle
Robin Whittle
4 months ago
Reply to  Edwin Blake

True. Why all the downvotes for Edwin Blake’s comment? True in terms of the intentions of those currently leading Israel.
True of the future? River to the sea Greater Israel somehow magically cleared of millions of Palestinians (never mind value judgments about whether they should think themselves Palestinian, they DO) from Gaza and the West Bank. Israel – and more broadly Jews – having _already_ squandered a great deal of the considerable moral capital built up from good Jewish works all over the world plus the horrors of the Holocaust, will have squandered a lot more before the current Israeli plan is complete. They – Israel as a country, and more broadly Jews and others who support this deadly creation of Greater Israel – will find it much harder to gain moral, political and practical support from Western nations rightly horrified by what is going on now, which is a percent or two of what will be required to clear out Gaza and the West Bank. This would be true even if the Palestinians somehow disappeared. It will be worse, since Israel specifically intends to burden numerous other countries – enemies, allies and all those in between, near and far – with millions of angry, likely violent, not very productive, Palestinian refugees.
Then, ignoring potential problems with the Palestinians already living in Israel, fully fledged Greater Israel has more extensive borders to defend. Surrounding countries, populated by their current Arabs, plus many angry, embittered, Palestinian Arabs (who don’t care a toss about people thinking they should accept their fate except perhaps to kill them) – are going to get along peacefully with Israel?
This is not even considering Iran with its missiles and Israel trying to goad the USA into bombing Iranian nuclear reactors in the crazy hope that this would render Iran no longer a serious threat to Israel’s peace and prosperity: Michael Oren, Israeli ambassador to the USA 2019-2013, writing on 2023-11-15 https://www.thefp.com/p/michael-oren-failure-iran-delusion-nuclear-deal .
I have no idea what a stable, much less happy, outcome might be.
It is a mistake to think that the leaderships of Gazans (and now most West Bank Palestinians apparently support Hamas, since Oct 7th) and of Israel as operating according to conventional political plans which have even a faint chance of working. Both teams are dominated by enthno-politico-religious fanatics who know they have God and History on their side.  They both want nothing more than to fight the other side (leadership, population and their supporters elsewhere) to the death, believing that End Times will see their side vanquish the other. They will both sacrifice their own people and whatever support they might have in other nations to this end – because the end they seek will be like heaven, to them.  
I am not arguing for one course of action or another – just expressing how bleak I think the situation is and criticising those who argue that the leadership – or the majority population which supports or tolerates that leadership – of one side is morally much better than that of the other.

Elizabeth Hamilton
Elizabeth Hamilton
4 months ago
Reply to  Edwin Blake

“Ethnically pure Israelis” hahaha obviously written by an ignoramus who hasn’t the slightest idea of what Israel is, much less of its ethnically diverse population and the religious groups (Christians, Druze, Muslims, Baha’i…) that live peacefully there with the majority Jewish but ethnically diverse population.

Helen Hughes
Helen Hughes
4 months ago

Was what worth it? Israel helping to set up Hamas and continuing to dehumanise and oppress those in Gaza until the lid finally blew off the kettle and the possibility for them to break through the border on 7th October could be engineered, along with presenting it to the media as the worst massacre in living history? So Netanyahu could finally have an excuse to actually eradicate the Palestinian presence there? Was it worth it for Netanyahu? Well, he certainly got a lot of Unherd members on his side, which I’m sure he’s pleased about. And the US and many other arms industries are pretty pleased about it too.
Read Jonathan Cook. He knows the situation there intimately. Can we still listen to all sides on matters as important as this?
https://jonathancook.substack.com/p/hamas-mass-rape-claim-lacks-evidence?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=476450&post_id=139834893&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=e6w6h&utm_medium=email

Rasmus Fogh
RF
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

Is that what they call ‘the Al Capone defence’? “They cannot prove it, because there are no witnesses alive and able to testify. Until everything has been proved beyond reasonable doubt I am innocent”. Full marks for conspiracy theories – you are basically saying that if anything happened on October 7th the only culprit is Natanyahu, who engineered the whole thing as a propaganda stunt. Just do not expect anybody to listen to you.

Last edited 4 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
Robin Whittle
Robin Whittle
4 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

Why the downvotes of Helen Hughes truthful account? See my comment above in response to Edwin Blake’s likewise downvoted comment. The truth is not happy or convenient for many people’s inclinations and abhorrence of Hamas’s attack. No matter how dangerous and depraved one side is, this doesn’t mean that the other side is any better.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  Robin Whittle

Yes it does.

Claire M
Claire M
4 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

Excellent comment! Thank you!

Julian Farrows
JF
Julian Farrows
4 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

I read the article and found the author’s sources to be either self-referential or unreliable.

Robin Whittle
Robin Whittle
4 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

Further to my reply below, Edwin Blake’s comment disappeared as did my reply. What’s the point of putting effort into comments here if they disappear?
Here is what I wrote, without the URL which might have upset the System. Edwin wrote that Likud supported Hamas because they never wanted the two state solution – and that their final solution will be clearing Palestinians out of both Gaza and the West Bank.  It had -7 the last time I looked.
True. Why all the downvotes for Edwin Blake’s comment? True in terms of the intentions of those currently leading Israel.
True of the future? River to the sea Greater Israel somehow magically cleared of millions of Palestinians (never mind value judgments about whether they should think themselves Palestinian, they DO) from Gaza and the West Bank. Israel – and more broadly Jews – having _already_ squandered a great deal of the considerable moral capital built up from good Jewish works all over the world plus the horrors of the Holocaust, will have squandered a lot more before the current Israeli plan is complete. They – Israel as a country, and more broadly Jews and others who support this deadly creation of Greater Israel – will find it much harder to gain moral, political and practical support from Western nations rightly horrified by what is going on now, which is a percent or two of what will be required to clear out Gaza and the West Bank. This would be true even if the Palestinians somehow disappeared. It will be worse, since Israel specifically intends to burden numerous other countries – enemies, allies and all those in between, near and far – with millions of angry, likely violent, not very productive, Palestinian refugees.
Then, ignoring potential problems with the Palestinians already living in Israel, fully fledged Greater Israel has more extensive borders to defend. Surrounding countries, populated by their current Arabs, plus many angry, embittered, Palestinian Arabs (who don’t care a toss about people thinking they should accept their fate except perhaps to kill them) – are going to get along peacefully with Israel?
This is not even considering Iran with its missiles and Israel trying to goad the USA into bombing Iranian nuclear reactors in the crazy hope that this would render Iran no longer a serious threat to Israel’s peace and prosperity: Michael Oren, Israeli ambassador to the USA 2019-2013, writing on 2023-11-15 “The Iran Delusion – Years of U.S. appeasement have failed. It’s time for a dramatic change of course.”.
I have no idea what a stable, much less happy, outcome might be.
It is a mistake to think that the leaderships of Gazans (and now most West Bank Palestinians apparently support Hamas, since Oct 7th) and of Israel as operating according to conventional political plans which have even a faint chance of working. Both teams are dominated by enthno-politico-religious fanatics who know they have God and History on their side.  They both want nothing more than to fight the other side (leadership, population and their supporters elsewhere) to the death, believing that End Times will see their side vanquish the other. They will both sacrifice their own people and whatever support they might have in other nations to this end – because the end they seek will be like heaven, to them.  
I am not arguing for one course of action or another – just expressing how bleak I think the situation is and criticising those who argue that the leadership – or the majority population which supports or tolerates that leadership – of one side is morally much better than that of the other.

Josef O
JO
Josef O
4 months ago

The Hamas mastermind of the October 7th atrocious massacre was inprisoned in Israel for cruel acts of terrorism. During his prison days he was given the possibility to study and obtain a degree in engineering. One day he went to the prison’s dentist with an abscess. The dentist took a routine overview of the jaws which could show part of the brain. He noticed that the patient had an urgent tumor in the brain. Sinwar was operated by Israeli doctors who saved his life. In 2012 (or so) he was freed in an exchange of prisoners , 1000 arab prisoners for one captive Israeli soldier. So he went to Gaza.
As a sign of gratitude to Israel he became head of the military wing of Hamas. He planned and masterminded the horrible massacre of October 7th in which 1200 Israelis were killed and 240 were taken hostages to Gaza.
By the way the villages that were attacked were populated by Israeli citizens who have done their best to live in peace with people of Gaza giving them jobs and nice treatment. They were retributed with a pogrom.
Now what exactly are the Israelis supposed to do ?

Last edited 4 months ago by Josef O
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
4 months ago

Is this breaking news? I’ve followed the conflict pretty closely and this is the first I’ve heard of any ethnic cleansing.

No one wants the Palestinians; not Europe, not Egypt, not Jordan. Where exactly are they going?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
4 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Well tbh have you not seen the Palestinian sympathisers call for ethnic cleansing on a weekly basis in the streets of Europe and North America. It is also all over social media.

jane baker
jane baker
4 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

To the grave,it looks like to me.

sue vogel
SV
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

You appear to be on their side. Perhaps you could save them?

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
4 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Would a Labour Government be able to resist British Muslim voter pressure to make Gazans a privileged refugee group like Ukraine and HK? I rather doubt it.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
4 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

God help us.

sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

We must help ourselves….

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
4 months ago
Reply to  sue vogel

Oh yeah, that’s worked so well in the world up to this date…
God Save us from ourselves!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The climate is changing faster than we are.

D Glover
DG
D Glover
4 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I thought that extending such a generous welcome to Ukrainians and HKers was setting a precedent that might come round to haunt us.
The world is full of displaced people, many innocent, many badly mistreated. Can a small country be their refuge?

sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I very much doubt it if my own (Labour, Muslim MP) is anything to go by…. I didn’t vote for him.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
4 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

I think every rationale person understands the danger of taking in Palestinian refugees. Maybe I’m underestimating the incompetence of Starmer.

Clare Knight
CK
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

That’s a terrifying thought. Though I no longer live in England it pains me to think of Muslims outnumbering ethnic Brits.

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
4 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Only 6.7% of the UK population is Muslim. 83% is Christian or have no religion. How does that equate with Muslims outnumbering “ethnic Brits” whatever they are?

Andrew Wise
AW
Andrew Wise
4 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I agree that the term ethnic cleansing is unhelpful, it’s a highly loaded term.
The underlying thrust of the article is however a useful lens through which to view the situation.
I worry the west is calling for a Two State solution simply because it sounds good. History suggests neither side really wants the compromises involved.
So unless there’s some mythical three state solution we are left with a one state solution and the inevitable winners and losers that result from any war to achieve that.
The article does catalog examples of exactly that. War is simply a means of moving politics along, but never the ultimate solution.

Last edited 4 months ago by Andrew Wise
sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

I’d suggest that Israel might have wanted a two state solution before Palestinian refugee-ship became a cause celebre and a gravy train and had the Palestinian leadership acted in good faith. Given that Hamas and the PA have been busily engaged in grooming future generations to want to die while killing Israelis, it’s rather a busted flush now.

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
4 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

I don’t disagree with any of this, but the author makes it sound like it’s inevitable.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Perhaps it is.

Francisco Javier Bernal
Francisco Javier Bernal
4 months ago

Aris, don’t forget your own country’s role in the ethnic cleansing of Jewish Salonica in 1917, literally by fire. The “it was an accident” excuse could never explain away the fact that it only affected the 3/4 of the city that was populated by Sephardic Jews and left the Greek quarter mostly intact. Moreover, the way Jews were denied the right to rebuild and their own houses given away to Greek refugees from Turkey. The new Greek government refused to rebuild the city as it was and commissioned a French architect with a radical urban plan and no connection with Salonica’s past. This form of urbicide was directly connected with the purely ethnic shape that the Greek state, like other nationalizing states in that era, notably Turkey.

What little was left of Jewish Salonica, the Nazis finished the job during the Second World War, whilst the new locals looked the other way mostly.

Last edited 4 months ago by Francisco Javier Bernal
Matthew Freedman
Matthew Freedman
4 months ago

This just shows the hypocrisy of socialist left. The Holocaust is currently being deemphasised in certain circles as “just another genocide”. Analytically and statistically it isn’t. It may be one of a few that caused huge declines in population, 90% of Jews in Poland were murdered. That has similarities with the Armenia genocide, and the Nambian genocide. But its not one of 100s as they now are trying to make out. Meanwhile the nabka in which less than 1% of arabs of Palestine died in fighting is raised as a unique event by the socialist left. Many Palestinian refugees of 1948 still live in Palestine, just in a different part but the socialist left want to give all its energies to reversing the creation of Israel. Something that would create millions of Jewish refugees, many with no where to go.

Last edited 4 months ago by Matthew Freedman
Alan Kaufman
Alan Kaufman
4 months ago

No. The Holocaust is not being “deemphasized,” it is not even being taught. Harvard, for example, has 17 courses on blacks and hispanics, and 3 on the 5000 years of Jewish history.

sue vogel
SV
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Kaufman

Wonder how much Qatari and like funding goes into Harvard’s and other coffers?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Kaufman

It’s the squeaky wheels syndrome.

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
4 months ago

My objection to the article is the inference that only the U.S. is responsible.

Matt M
Matt M
4 months ago
Reply to  Michael Layman

It makes a change from Britain being held responsible.

Neal Attermann
NA
Neal Attermann
4 months ago

May I offer some counterpoints:
1) Little is mentioned of Israel’s non-Euro Jewish population. They, having for the most part been ethnicity cleansed from Arab countries, tend to be more right wing than their Euro cousins. The amount of Jews/Arabs “cleansed” from their respective homelands in the ‘40s and early ‘50s was pretty even. Not sure how this squares with the author’s Euro frame of reference.
2) The Right of Return is the nub. The UN and other NGOs have kept the hope alive for generations that never lived in Israel and looked the other way with regard to indoctrination in schools and building the Hamas military infrastructure. They are an obstacle to peace that need to be throughly overhauled.
3) The Hamas charter calls for eliminating Israel. The PA is hapless, corrupt and has little public support. Lebanon is an example of Iran not letting multi religious states viably survive. A one State solution won’t work. As of now how does a two state solution? Iran’s current dictatorship is an over riding problem. How to live in Israel/Palestine without a long lasting solution in the immediate or intermediate future is the challenge ahead of us, and too little thought or comment is given over to what is to be done in the here and now.
4) I’ve seen little mainstream support in Israel or the US for moving the Gazans out. It’s more a straw man than a viable option.
5) Two lands for two peoples is the only real end game. The tragedy is it’s so far away, and after 10/7, even further than before.

Rasmus Fogh
RF
Rasmus Fogh
4 months ago
Reply to  Neal Attermann

Very convincing and realistic.

Francisco Javier Bernal
FB
Francisco Javier Bernal
4 months ago
Reply to  Neal Attermann

Transjordan represented about 77% of the original League of Nations Mandate for Palestine. The remaining 23% eventually became Israel in 1948 and the post-1967 Disputed Territory.

They weren’t satifisfied with getting Jordan, what does it make you think that sharing the remaining 23% would be any different?

You are talking about the same people who eight centuries later are still claiming to reconquer Andalusia. The only reasoning Islam understand is Violence and the Faith of the Sword.

Walter Marvell
WM
Walter Marvell
4 months ago
Reply to  Neal Attermann

Excellent. I wish Unherd would explore the cupability of the UN in the Gazan tragedy. That perma refugee diktat; the way they provide food housing and shelter to a regime bent on terror and war. A de facto partner. The UN and so much international law is now not just anachronistic. Think Who and China. The insame Refugee/,Asylum laws. It is causing deep and lasting harm to the world war. It must urgently be overturned purged and reformed.

Allison Barrows
AB
Allison Barrows
4 months ago

“Egypt’s disinclination to host two million Gazan refugees . . . solidarity and self-preservation”.
Here in the US we’re told that’s racist. If we concern ourselves with American solidarity and prefer our votes be cast by actual citizens, we’re hateful “Christian Nationalists”, to use the latest term of derision.
I can’t stand these articles bemoaning the plight of this or that in-group and ignoring or decrying the “outs.” It’s the violent, irrational, bloodthirsty, machete-wielders that somehow receive the victim treatment. Bottom line: Israel is a nation and will protect herself, as is her natural right. The rest of the world can f*ck right off.

Last edited 4 months ago by Allison Barrows
Alex Lekas
AL
Alex Lekas
4 months ago

Funny how one nation’s self-preservation is another’s racism.

Alex Lekas
AL
Alex Lekas
4 months ago

There is something to be said for cultural homogeneity. The mass importation of people hostile to Western society has demonstrated that much. How many European nations had no real crime problem to speak of beforehand, and I shudder to think what will happen in the US with the open border letting god-knows-who pass.
There has been no lack of effort to create a Palestinian state, but the leadership refuses because it means co-existence with Israel. It’s impossible to negotiate with someone who wants you dead.

Alan Kaufman
AK
Alan Kaufman
4 months ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

You are correct on homogeneity. Apart from the diversity crowd, most homogeneous countries do very well. Only two exceptions come to mind: Israel and Switzerland!

sue vogel
SV
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Alan Kaufman

Israel’s doing OK. The trouble is caused by those who want her gone.

Douglas Hainline
DH
Douglas Hainline
4 months ago
Reply to  sue vogel

I believe Mr Kaufman meant his ‘exceptions’ in the opposite sense, that is, Israel and Switzerland are not homogeneous, and yet are doing well.

Jon Barrow
JB
Jon Barrow
4 months ago

Yes. Obviously depends on whether one means ethnic or culture-values homogeneity (though Israel is 20 percent non-Jewish, which holds even in the cultural sense; and Switzerland (previously culturally united) has gone the way of every other W European nation.

Pat Davers
Pat Davers
4 months ago

In a Wall Street Journal opinion piece, two Israeli lawmakers have instead urged Western countries — particularly Europe — to host Gaza’s population, asserting that: “The international community has a moral imperative—and an opportunity—to demonstrate compassion [and] help the people of Gaza move toward a more prosperous future.” ”
I must say that that is really, really, big of these guys – telling Europe that it must deal with the humanitarian fall out of military action caried out by Israel, in order to demonstrate their “compassion”.
The thing is, Europe is caught in a Holocaust Guilt / Colonial Guilt double whammy and so has an imperative to lend political support to the Israeli actions on the one hand, and to deal with the resulting refugee problem on the other.
Of course, this will even further exacerbate the tensions already existing in Western Europe with large Muslim minorities and will cause further destabilization there, but this is does not seem to be a concern for Israel, in spite of the inevitable increase in anti-Semitism in Europe that will occur.
Would Israel really care if, say, Germany went to the dogs? It’s easy enough to see why they might not….

Paul MacDonnell
PM
Paul MacDonnell
4 months ago
Reply to  Pat Davers

It’s the humanitarian fall out of 70+ years of European and U.S. sponsorship, mainly via the U.N., of the Palestinian delusion that they are an hereditary oppressed singular people, and the encouragement of the neo-Romantic fantasy that Arab “anger” and “rage” is a justified reaction to their serial failure — due to incompetence — to destroy the Jewish state.

Francisco Javier Bernal
FB
Francisco Javier Bernal
4 months ago
Douglas Hainline
DH
Douglas Hainline
4 months ago

Let me urge everyone who is interested in this topic to read the recommended piece by Martha Gellhorn. I’m not a partisan of either side — but I learned a lot from this article.

Jon Barrow
JB
Jon Barrow
4 months ago

Me too.

Elizabeth Hamilton
EH
Elizabeth Hamilton
4 months ago

Her description of the Palestinians is romantic, poetic, sentimental and a bit, well, you know, racist with its emphasis on skin tones. Not a good basis on which to talk politics:
“The children are as fast as birds, irreverent as monkeys, large-eyed, ready to laugh. The young girls, trained by carrying water jars or other heavy household bundles on their heads, move like ballerinas and are shrouded in modesty and silence as if in cocoons. The young men, crudely or finely formed, have in common the hopefulness and swagger of their new manhood. The middle years seem nondescript, in both sexes. After this the women, who age quickly but not as quickly as the men, wear unpainted experience on their faces; they look patient, humorous, and strong. When the men have grown visibly old, they turn into a race of grandees. Their color, infant to patriarch, ranges from golden fair to mahogany dark, all warmed by the glaze of sun. The instinct for hospitality, the elegance of manner have not been exaggerated.”

sue vogel
SV
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Pat Davers

I agree with the Israeli lawmakers.
Alternatively Europe could mind its own business for once.

Pat Davers
PD
Pat Davers
4 months ago
Reply to  sue vogel

You know, there is nothing I’d like better than for Europe to be able to “mind its own business” and just let the two Semitic tribes slug it out over a far away patch of land.

But, for better or for worse, it has somehow become a “global” issue. I wish it hadn’t, but here we are.

sue vogel
sue vogel
4 months ago
Reply to  Pat Davers

Only to those lacking in th capacity for deep thought….

Jim Veenbaas
JV
Jim Veenbaas
4 months ago
Reply to  Pat Davers

Europe is under no obligation to take Gaza’s refugees. In light of the growing popular revolt against immigration, European leaders wouldn’t dare do it.

Elizabeth Hamilton
EH
Elizabeth Hamilton
4 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Jim, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Macron volunteered to do it, so deep is our ruling elite’s denial of the reasons for what you call the “popular revolt.”

Mark Goodhand
MG
Mark Goodhand
4 months ago

Excellent article. Well done for calling out Mearsheimer’s hypocrisy. That man’s selective outrage reeks.

P Branagan
PB
P Branagan
4 months ago

Perhaps the oh-so elite readership of UnHerd could help me out with a dilemma/conundrum.

Ethic cleansing seems to be very fashionable again. It’s OK for the Zionists to create a pure racist ethic state in Palestine.

However, all European countries are obliged by the ECHR and their own death wishing leftist governments to accept into their bosom many 10 of millions of migrants that have fundamentally different values and have no desire to fully integrate.

One wonders when the ethnic cleansing of Britain will occur and whether the countries across Asia, the Middle East and Africa will accept the return of the displaced ‘minorities’.

Or, will the indigenous English, Scots and Welsh who have lived in the island for thousands of years be pushed into the grey waters of the Atlantic ocean in small boats by the newly established ‘majority’.
Any even vaguely rational suggestions to answer this conundrum would be much appreciated.

Last edited 4 months ago by P Branagan
j watson
JW
j watson
4 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

‘…the indigenous English, Scots & Welsh who have lived in the island for thousands of years’ – hmm you seem to lack any great historical perspective. First up English derives from Angles who came from what is now northern Germany starting about 1600yrs ago. Not thousands of years ago. The Scots came from Ireland largely about 1200 yrs ago. The Welsh may in fact be longest inhabitants as derived from the original pre-Roman Britons. But even they have v little genetic trace to those who built Stonehenge c5000yrs ago. DNA science suggests those people have been completely replaced.
So population changes pretty ‘de rigeur’ for these Isles.

Last edited 4 months ago by j watson
P Branagan
PB
P Branagan
4 months ago
Reply to  j watson

OK smartass. Let’s settle for many hundreds of years.
Satisfied?

j watson
JW
j watson
4 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Yes, that’s much better.
On the same theme – do you see folks who may have parents from different ethnic backgrounds, or ancestry from similar, as indigenous or not if part of that background was White-British? For example it’s fairly obvious many Afro-Caribbean share ancestry whether because plantation owners imposed themselves or something similar. Thus would they not now be in their part-indigenous country if here too?

Last edited 4 months ago by j watson
Citizen Diversity
CD
Citizen Diversity
4 months ago
Reply to  j watson

Some changes that weren’t always pretty.
‘Welsh’ means ‘foreigner’ in Old Saxon. Thus the Welsh – the Britons – were the people who were foreigners in their own land. The Mercian law codes included laws that discriminated against the Britons.

Jon Barrow
JB
Jon Barrow
4 months ago
Reply to  j watson

As I understand it the largest single component in every region of Britain is pre-Roman ‘Brythonic’ (Brythonic DNA is itself very diverse in different regions eg Brythonic DNA can be distinguished for different British tribes but north German/Danish DNA cannot). Interesting that ‘Cheddar Man’ (9000 yrs old) DNA is still correlated with the Cheddar Gorge area and ethnic Brits (for your clarity, this is the unique British mix that has a well-recognised history of local development plus migration from certain parts of N W Europe – this is like every other identifiable ethnic group) has about 10 percent ‘Cheddar Man’ – type DNA.

Rafi Stern
RS
Rafi Stern
4 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Just pointing out that the principle of the ethnic cleaning of “Palestine” of Jews has been accepted for many years. Everyone takes it as obvious that there should not be one Jew left in any area under Palestinian control, enforced by death.

Samuel Ross
SR
Samuel Ross
4 months ago
Reply to  Rafi Stern

Yes, that is curious.

eleanor nightingale
EN
eleanor nightingale
4 months ago
Reply to  Rafi Stern

I don’t think those settlers in the West Bank accept that?

Rafi Stern
RS
Rafi Stern
4 months ago

They know that if they were under Palestinian rule their fate would be the same as what happened in Southern Israel on 7th October.

Matthew Freedman
MF
Matthew Freedman
4 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

What exact “pure racist” state has been created? These are lies of the pro-palestine left. At least 20% of the citizens of Israel are Arabs. Of Jews, they are diverse too and of many streams. Go to google now and search “egyptian constitution” and “jordan constitution” or any arab country except perhaps lebanon. You will find these are legally arab countries with islam as the state religion and a guide to law making. Thats nothing like the liberal mildly Jewish state most Jewish people want over barely 0.3% of the middle east.