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The Ukraine war is about to get worse Collapsed grain and gas deals spell disaster for Europe

A fuel storage facility burns after Russian attacks in Kalynivka (FADEL SENNA / AFP) (Photo by FADEL SENNA/AFP via Getty Images)

A fuel storage facility burns after Russian attacks in Kalynivka (FADEL SENNA / AFP) (Photo by FADEL SENNA/AFP via Getty Images)


July 31, 2023   5 mins

Amid the never-ending coverage of the latest offensive or counteroffensive in Ukraine, it is often unappreciated just how much worse the global economic repercussions from the conflict could have been. Russia is the world’s leading exporter of gas and provided around 50% of the EU’s demand before the war; Ukraine, meanwhile, is a major exporter of grain, alongside Russia itself. The complete disruption of either of these channels would have resulted in catastrophe.

The fact this didn’t happen last year was largely thanks to two crucial agreements secured early in the conflict: the Black Sea Grain Initiative, whereby Russia allowed Ukraine to continue exporting grain via the Black Sea (which is under its control), and a deal that allowed Russian gas to continue flowing to Europe via Ukraine. But the former has just been suspended, and the latter could soon be terminated. The true cost of this war, it seems, is about to greatly increase.

When the grain deal was brokered last July, António Guterres, the secretary-general of the UN, called it a “beacon of hope” — and rightly so. Reaching an agreement of this kind was a remarkable achievement and a big, if rare, victory for international diplomacy. It contributed to significantly lowering grain prices and avoided a collapse in Ukrainian exports (which only declined by around 30%) — effectively preventing a potential global humanitarian disaster. Over the past year, more than 1,000 ships (containing nearly 33 million metric tons of grain and other foodstuffs) left Ukraine from three Ukrainian ports: Odesa, Chornomorsk and Yuzhny/Pivdennyi.

On July 17,  however, Putin pulled out of the deal. Russia’s move didn’t come out of the blue. As Western sanctions increased, the deal had started coming under growing strain, with the Kremlin claiming that the West wasn’t holding up its end of the bargain, which allowed for more Russian agricultural and fertiliser exports. For this to happen, Russia insisted on reconnecting the Russian Agricultural Bank to the Swift international payment system and, among other things, the unblocking of assets and accounts of those Russian companies involved in food and fertiliser exports.

But the most important demand was the resumption of the Togliatti-Odessa ammonia pipeline, which runs from the Russian city of Togliatti to various Black Sea ports in Ukraine, and which prior to the war exported 2.5 million tonnes of ammonia annually. As part of the negotiations over the Black Sea Grain Initiative, Kyiv and Moscow struck a deal to allow the safe passage of ammonia through the pipeline — but the latter was never reopened by Ukraine. Last September, the UN urged Ukraine to resume its transport, in view of ammonia fertiliser’s crucial role in supporting global agricultural productions, but to no avail.

Then, last month, Russia once again demanded once the reopening of the pipeline as a condition for renewing the Black Sea Grain Initiative. Just a few days later, a section of it located in Ukrainian territory was blown up — according to Russia, by Ukrainian saboteurs, in a deliberate effort to sabotage the grain deal. The governor of Ukraine’s Kharkiv Oblast, however, maintains that it was destroyed by Russian shelling. In any case, the fate of the deal was more or less sealed at that point: when Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s spokesman, announced a month later that “the Black Sea agreements are no longer in effect”, few were surprised. The decision came just a few hours after Ukraine’s strike on the bridge connecting mainland Russia to Crimea, though Moscow denied that there was a connection between the two events.

Predictably, the West has chastised Russia’s decision to pull out of the deal. US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said his country regrets Russia’s “continued weaponisation of food”, while the EU’s foreign policy chief Josep Borrell claimed that Putin is “using hunger as a weapon”. Elsewhere, Poland’s Foreign Minister Zbigniew Rau described it as “nothing less than an act of economic aggression against the states of the Global South, which are most dependent on the Ukrainian grain”, while Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni stated that Russia’s decision is “further proof on who is a friend and who is the enemy of the poorest countries”.

Such strong rhetoric masks a more nuanced picture, however. As Oxfam has claimed, based on data from the UN’s Joint Coordination Centre, less than 3% of the grain from the deal went to the world’s poorest countries, including Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, Afghanistan and Yemen. By contrast, approximately 80% of the grain has been shipped to richer countries, mainly EU countries and China. Putin himself, in conversation with the President of South Africa Cyril Ramaphosa, claimed that “the deal’s main goal — to supply grain to countries in need, including those on the African continent — has not been implemented”.

Yet despite Putin’s claims of export challenges, Russia enjoyed record levels of wheat shipments over the past year — so clearly this decision has much more to do with the exacerbation of West-Russia relations than it has to do with strictly economic issues. Likewise, it is fair to assume that Putin’s decision to send free grain to six African countries that have strong ties with Moscow has more to do with strengthening global alliances than actual humanitarian concerns. But with no end to the war in sight, and all sides engaged in increasingly brazen military brinkmanship, is anyone really surprised that a deal that hinged entirely on Russia’s goodwill has come undone?

And the price will be paid by Western countries, too. Now that the Black Sea Grain Initiative has been paused, even greater quantities of Ukrainian grain will be transported overland across Europe through so-called “solidarity routes” set up by the EU. Yet problems had already arisen before the initiative collapsed, as cheap Ukrainian grain, much of which was exported by tax-avoiding shell firms, flooded local markets, where they undercut local produce and angered farmers. In response, in April, the governments of Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia introduced unilateral bans on Ukrainian grain until an EU deal was agreed that made it possible to reduce pressure on local markets, while at the same time enabling the transit of Ukrainian goods to traditional markets in non-EU countries. With the suspension of the Black Sea Grain Initiative, however, the pressures are likely to increase.

At the moment, the future of the deal remains unclear. Putin left the door open to reviving it, saying that Russia will comply “as soon as the Russian part (of the deal) is completed”. However, the fact that Russia has launched several attacks on critical grain export infrastructure in the Odesa region suggests that a resumption of the deal appears unlikely anytime soon.

And it appears a similar story of obstruction seems to be playing out with Russian gas exports. Despite the war, Russian gas has continued to flow through Ukraine into Europe — softening the blow of the EU’s intention of decoupling from Russian energy while allowing Ukraine to raise much-needed cash in the form of transit fees. In a recent interview with the Financial Times, however, German Galushchenko, Ukraine’s energy minister, said that Kyiv is unlikely to renew the gas transit deal when Ukraine’s supply contract with Gazprom expires in 2024.

In practice, this would mean the closure of one of the last arteries still carrying Russian gas to Europe, a move which would severely weaken many energy-dependent EU countries. Recent analysis by Columbia University’s Center on Global Energy Policy suggests that deliveries to EU countries “could drop to between 10 and 16 billion cubic meters (45 to 73% of current levels)”, according to a June analysis by Columbia University’s Center on Global Energy Policy, leaving Europe with a shortfall that cannot currently be replaced with greater liquefied natural gas imports from the US and Qatar.

Moreover, the loss of even a small percentage of supply has the potential to raise prices across the continent, given the tightness of global gas markets. In Germany, for instance, the economy minister has hinted that the country will be forced to significantly wind down its industrial activities if the gas agreement isn’t extended at the end of the year. For a country — and indeed a continent — already struggling with creeping deindustrialisation, the consequences could be devastating.

This is especially worrying if we consider that, barring the same higher-than-average temperatures as last year, this winter Europe will have a natural gas deficit of at least 60 billion cubic meters. In other words, it’s not inconceivable that another gas crisis is around the corner — and it might be even worse than last year’s. As the Ukraine war drags on, even the few safeguards put in place are coming undone. Instead of being diluted by diplomacy, the repercussions of this conflict have merely evolved.


Thomas Fazi is an UnHerd columnist and translator. His latest book is The Covid Consensus, co-authored with Toby Green.

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polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Trying to make my way between the conflicting claims of the trolls and the gung-hos is not easy. Let us at least acknowledge that the consequences of this war are incalculable, and potentially catastrophic – It isn’t a game. I hope that someone in a position to influence events is trying to find a way to bring this to a halt before we all get trashed. A bit of realpolitik, that is, politics based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations, would be some comfort.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

There are many trolls afoot on this thread.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Sometime last year the administrator of Samizdata.net commented that he could spot the trolls on the site because they all had Russian IPN addresses. He was amused that Putin wouldn’t trust them with a VPN to hide their location.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Oh dear! A troll has downvoted me! No sense of humour, these russkies.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Some of these trolls are Ukrainian and Western… for sure. I have never seen the like on Unherd.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Has it occurred to you that these “Russian” IPs might be exit nodes of VPNs in use by NATO and Ukrainian trolls?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Oh dear! A troll has downvoted me! No sense of humour, these russkies.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Some of these trolls are Ukrainian and Western… for sure. I have never seen the like on Unherd.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Has it occurred to you that these “Russian” IPs might be exit nodes of VPNs in use by NATO and Ukrainian trolls?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Sometime last year the administrator of Samizdata.net commented that he could spot the trolls on the site because they all had Russian IPN addresses. He was amused that Putin wouldn’t trust them with a VPN to hide their location.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The gung hos can be trolls too. I notice that when a sharp point is made that could possibly disfavour the reputation of Ukraine, suddenly comments sections are swamped with the same not very credible or well argued excuses.. Accidental memes? I dont think so.

Douglas Proudfoot
Douglas Proudfoot
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

As an American, I don’t understand why legalizing fracking isn’t part of the energy solution in Europe and the UK. If you produce your own natural gas, you won’t have to buy it from Putin. Why is it preferable to buy natural gas from your enemy to producing your own?

Of course, I am against President Big Guy’s anti-fossil fuels policies. I don’t see any connection between putatively warm weather and human activity as having been proved. There are no “scientific” climate models that show statistical significance when predicting future climate based on human activity caused CO2 or methane. Without statistical significance it’s only The Science (TM) not science. Possibly I’m a heritic who needs to be burned at the stake?

In answering this comment, please try to stick to facts, not emotion. I don’t care if it’s our 19th climate breakdown, or boiling climate. I dare to notice we still have a climate that hasn’t broken down, and the water in the pond outside my house is liquid water, not boiling.

Last edited 1 year ago by Douglas Proudfoot
Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago

So well put. And this is from an American as well.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Yeah, you’re right – you certainly do not understand.
Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.
Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, said: “I don’t think there is any chance of fracking in the UK in the near term.”
He said that when Cuadrilla had operated here, it had discovered that the geology of the UK was unsuited to widespread fracking operations. “No sensible investors” would take the risk of embarking on large projects here, he said.
There, now you understand.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.
Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.
“I don’t think there is any chance of fracking in the UK in the near term.”
He said that when Cuadrilla had operated here, it had discovered that the geology of the UK was unsuited to widespread fracking operations. “No sensible investors” would take the risk of embarking on large projects here, he said. “It’s very challenging geology, compared with North America [where fracking is a major industry].”
Unlike the gas-bearing shale deposits in the US, the shale resource in the UK is “heavily faulted and compartmentalised”, making it far harder to exploit at any scale.
—————————————————————————-
As an American, now do you understand? Fracking me arse.
Nuclear, hydrogen and renewables are the way forward, not the dying farts of the oil industry in a tiny and over-populated island.
Get a grip

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Hydrogen” is a way forward – and you’re mocking him?

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Hydrogen” is a way forward – and you’re mocking him?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

You’re a “heritic” (sic) who can’t even spell heretic lol.

Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
1 year ago

How dare you?!!!
This part of the world believes in teenage that claims to see CO2 and that completely understands IPPC reports without every going to school. Now there is received wisdom.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago

So well put. And this is from an American as well.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Yeah, you’re right – you certainly do not understand.
Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.
Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, said: “I don’t think there is any chance of fracking in the UK in the near term.”
He said that when Cuadrilla had operated here, it had discovered that the geology of the UK was unsuited to widespread fracking operations. “No sensible investors” would take the risk of embarking on large projects here, he said.
There, now you understand.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.
Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.
“I don’t think there is any chance of fracking in the UK in the near term.”
He said that when Cuadrilla had operated here, it had discovered that the geology of the UK was unsuited to widespread fracking operations. “No sensible investors” would take the risk of embarking on large projects here, he said. “It’s very challenging geology, compared with North America [where fracking is a major industry].”
Unlike the gas-bearing shale deposits in the US, the shale resource in the UK is “heavily faulted and compartmentalised”, making it far harder to exploit at any scale.
—————————————————————————-
As an American, now do you understand? Fracking me arse.
Nuclear, hydrogen and renewables are the way forward, not the dying farts of the oil industry in a tiny and over-populated island.
Get a grip

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

You’re a “heritic” (sic) who can’t even spell heretic lol.

Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
1 year ago

How dare you?!!!
This part of the world believes in teenage that claims to see CO2 and that completely understands IPPC reports without every going to school. Now there is received wisdom.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

There are many trolls afoot on this thread.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The gung hos can be trolls too. I notice that when a sharp point is made that could possibly disfavour the reputation of Ukraine, suddenly comments sections are swamped with the same not very credible or well argued excuses.. Accidental memes? I dont think so.

Douglas Proudfoot
Douglas Proudfoot
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

As an American, I don’t understand why legalizing fracking isn’t part of the energy solution in Europe and the UK. If you produce your own natural gas, you won’t have to buy it from Putin. Why is it preferable to buy natural gas from your enemy to producing your own?

Of course, I am against President Big Guy’s anti-fossil fuels policies. I don’t see any connection between putatively warm weather and human activity as having been proved. There are no “scientific” climate models that show statistical significance when predicting future climate based on human activity caused CO2 or methane. Without statistical significance it’s only The Science (TM) not science. Possibly I’m a heritic who needs to be burned at the stake?

In answering this comment, please try to stick to facts, not emotion. I don’t care if it’s our 19th climate breakdown, or boiling climate. I dare to notice we still have a climate that hasn’t broken down, and the water in the pond outside my house is liquid water, not boiling.

Last edited 1 year ago by Douglas Proudfoot
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Trying to make my way between the conflicting claims of the trolls and the gung-hos is not easy. Let us at least acknowledge that the consequences of this war are incalculable, and potentially catastrophic – It isn’t a game. I hope that someone in a position to influence events is trying to find a way to bring this to a halt before we all get trashed. A bit of realpolitik, that is, politics based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations, would be some comfort.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Finally, more speculative doomsaying! 😉 Not that Fazi’s musings are groundless but what is his purpose or suggested course of ameliorative action? It seems that the sponsoring concern of this article and those like it is that people aren’t yet sufficiently worried about things they have no control over. Or intellectualized anxiety seeking company in its misery.
Less military brinksmanship, more sincere diplomacy please. Fewer articles penned by Cassandra and Chicken Little.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

A peace agreement, I expect – a realistic one that recognises Russia’s legitimate security concerns and the impracticability of the ethnic Ukrainian state ever regaining control of the Donetsk basin and Crimea.

Paul Truster
Paul Truster
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

So, a realistic incentive to further aggression? I believe that was tried in the 1930s, and was then considered realism too.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Truster

It worked very well after 1945 though, with the SU gaining several hundred kilometres of Polish territory, and quite a lot of Hungarian territory. Just as they had in 1939, plus the Baltic States, again invaded by the SU in 1939. Well, and Finland. For some reason Britain and France had failed to guarantee Finnish territory in 1938. Also in the 1930s,the agreement over the Sudeten Germans was made with Poland as well. History books are better sources than the History Channel, not that I am supposing that is your source. This subject tends to produce a sort of shorthand.

Andrzej Wasniewski
Andrzej Wasniewski
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

What part of British territory you would like to gift to Putin?

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago

Putin might “gift” some of Ukraine to Poland, and then you can deal with the hardcore Banderites that terrorised the Eastern “Ukrainians” so much they decided to secede and begged Putin for protection.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago

Putin might “gift” some of Ukraine to Poland, and then you can deal with the hardcore Banderites that terrorised the Eastern “Ukrainians” so much they decided to secede and begged Putin for protection.

Andrzej Wasniewski
Andrzej Wasniewski
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

What part of British territory you would like to gift to Putin?

Andrzej Wasniewski
Andrzej Wasniewski
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Truster

You are obviously right but most people here love to be “realistic” and “peace makers” as long as their ass is far away and they think untouchable. For now.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Truster

It worked very well after 1945 though, with the SU gaining several hundred kilometres of Polish territory, and quite a lot of Hungarian territory. Just as they had in 1939, plus the Baltic States, again invaded by the SU in 1939. Well, and Finland. For some reason Britain and France had failed to guarantee Finnish territory in 1938. Also in the 1930s,the agreement over the Sudeten Germans was made with Poland as well. History books are better sources than the History Channel, not that I am supposing that is your source. This subject tends to produce a sort of shorthand.

Andrzej Wasniewski
Andrzej Wasniewski
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul Truster

You are obviously right but most people here love to be “realistic” and “peace makers” as long as their ass is far away and they think untouchable. For now.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

There was a time when we in the US went to war with and defeated Mexico. We marched all the way deep into Mexico, and then in the end we kept parts like Texas, New Mexico, California, etc… We have been at peace with them for 175 years since then.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

True but the hourglass has turned. The demographic trends suggest California Alta & Pimeria Alta and Sonora Norte will soon be as good as returning to DF rule regardless of what flag their American puppets fly in the senate houses. Not so sure about Tejas/Nuevo Leon: they are a tough lot and TBH have bowed to neither DF nor Washington over the years. So the South will rise again but not in the way Jefferson Davis imagined lol

Last edited 1 year ago by mike otter
mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

True but the hourglass has turned. The demographic trends suggest California Alta & Pimeria Alta and Sonora Norte will soon be as good as returning to DF rule regardless of what flag their American puppets fly in the senate houses. Not so sure about Tejas/Nuevo Leon: they are a tough lot and TBH have bowed to neither DF nor Washington over the years. So the South will rise again but not in the way Jefferson Davis imagined lol

Last edited 1 year ago by mike otter
Janos Boris
Janos Boris
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

You know the seeming popularity of this “Russia’s legitimate security concerns” argument baffles me. Who the hell was Russia’ security being threatened by? Has any other nation or alliance claim Russian territory? Pressured it to change its regime? Russia is the only one that threatens th security of others. Russia gave an ultimatum to the West to restore the pre-1992 state of affairs, meaning that all member states joining Nato after that pull out. That would have inluded Poland, Romania, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, countries all rushing to NTO as soon as they had fulfilled th necessary conditions because they were afraid of Russia reoccupying them.

Hardee Hodges
Hardee Hodges
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

“legitimate security concerns” – Which are? Russia is a nuclear state and the west has no interest in invading. China is their real threat as they will annex pieces long in dispute.
And Ukraine will restore its 1991 oblasts.

Paul Truster
Paul Truster
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

So, a realistic incentive to further aggression? I believe that was tried in the 1930s, and was then considered realism too.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

There was a time when we in the US went to war with and defeated Mexico. We marched all the way deep into Mexico, and then in the end we kept parts like Texas, New Mexico, California, etc… We have been at peace with them for 175 years since then.

Janos Boris
Janos Boris
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

You know the seeming popularity of this “Russia’s legitimate security concerns” argument baffles me. Who the hell was Russia’ security being threatened by? Has any other nation or alliance claim Russian territory? Pressured it to change its regime? Russia is the only one that threatens th security of others. Russia gave an ultimatum to the West to restore the pre-1992 state of affairs, meaning that all member states joining Nato after that pull out. That would have inluded Poland, Romania, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, countries all rushing to NTO as soon as they had fulfilled th necessary conditions because they were afraid of Russia reoccupying them.

Hardee Hodges
Hardee Hodges
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

“legitimate security concerns” – Which are? Russia is a nuclear state and the west has no interest in invading. China is their real threat as they will annex pieces long in dispute.
And Ukraine will restore its 1991 oblasts.

james elliott
james elliott
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Yes, Fazi does it again with his tiresome yet tireless refrain….

The only solution, as I see it, is to work harder to bring Communism into being again in the West.

Just…..one…..more…..try…

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  james elliott

China is the only Communist country involved.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

China was communist in name only – they never got further down that road than socialism – and now that they allow private ownership of the means of production, they’re not even that.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

China was communist in name only – they never got further down that road than socialism – and now that they allow private ownership of the means of production, they’re not even that.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  james elliott

China is the only Communist country involved.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

This article is to help people to wake up to the notion that this war must end – for the sake of the whole world. It also highlights that many people in the US and UK (richer nations) think ‘Zelensky good’, ‘Putin bad’ and that attitude only goes to perpetuate the war. What about people actually putting pressure on their leaders to broker peace.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Ok, perhaps, but if so that path or purpose is not directly advocated by Fazi. From another point of view, if the avoidable economic consequences he considers likely do occur, that may be when people, and governments wake up in the way you’ve framed, to put more active pressure on the bellicose parties and their proxies.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago

Well said.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Ok, perhaps, but if so that path or purpose is not directly advocated by Fazi. From another point of view, if the avoidable economic consequences he considers likely do occur, that may be when people, and governments wake up in the way you’ve framed, to put more active pressure on the bellicose parties and their proxies.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago

Well said.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

‘suggested course of ameliorative action’

Nobody has one. That is the problem. Nobody can agree on one.

Quote:

This appears to remain the case. As recently as this past February, Milley reiterated that the war will end at the negotiating table, insisting that there was “a rolling window” for diplomacy and “opportunities at any moment in time.” By contrast, just last week Blinken gave a speech denigrating a growing global push for ceasefire, arguing it would “legitimize Russia’s land grab” and “reward the aggressor and punish the victim.

This stance isn’t limited to Milley……

……… Calling Russian president Vladimir Putin a “dangerous” and “cornered animal” in light of Ukraine’s bombing of the Kerch Bridge in Crimea, Mullen said his nuclear threats should be taken seriously, and that it all pointed to the need to negotiate, warning that Washington needed to “do everything we possibly can to try to get to the table to resolve this thing.”

Insisting that all wars end in negotiations — “the sooner the better, as far as I’m concerned” — Mullen suggested the four eastern Ukrainian provinces Putin had illegally annexed a month earlier could form part of an “off-ramp” for him.

This stood in stark contrast to the rhetoric of both civilian officials and media commentators, with many of the latter insisting to this day on a policy of total military defeat for Russia, and even inducing the country’s break-up. At the time and since, there was widespread insistence that Putin’s nuclear threats were a mere bluff to be safely dismissed, that negotiation is akin to surrender, and that Ukraine should fight until it had regained all of its lost territory.

Source: https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/06/13/is-the-us-military-more-intent-on-ending-ukraine-war-than-us-diplomats/

The us cannot agree the best way forward it seems. Some in the military think negotiations should start now. Some in the government think Russia should be destroyed.

‘that the sponsoring concern of this article’ :

The threat of energy shortages has not been written off by the IEA. But they are very uncertain about this winter, depends on the weather and a ‘very uncertain geopolitical situation’ or something like that. If its not cold we will be fine, if it is we may not be. Again, fundamentally, nobody knows, even the IEA. Full IEA report can be found here:

https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/iea-warns-winter-natgas-crisis-if-russia-cuts-supplies

Disclaimer that zerohedge is sometimes referred to as ‘far right’. It also has a comment section full of nutters.

It’s about time they decided what we are going to do.
If we want to ‘destroy russia’ and survive the sanctions, have enough energy to INCREASE our manufacturing capacity in Europe (Germanys has contracted by 20%) so we can actually make enough stuff to win this (which we are not doing at the moment) – we need to drop net zero and spend it on getting ready to do that. Now. War economy. (Net zero is also probably pointless in this situation since we are playing nuclear brinkmanship – it doesn’t really fit with the kind to trees care about the planet narrative anyway.) Especially if America is also wanting a war with China. Seems pointless keeping the un if nobody can negotiate anything so we should probably get rid of that and spend the money saved on war too. Would make sense if nobody wants to do diplomacy anymore anyway.

Or we need to listen to the people in the US military and negotiate peace. The longer this goes on the more unstable the situation becomes and the more unpredictable. Very bad for business.

My ray of sunshine. I’m going back in my box – before I get put there again.

Alan Hawkes
Alan Hawkes
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Cassandra told the truth: she just wasn’t believed.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Hawkes

I know that. Way to literalize the mythical import.
*From another angle: fair enough reply.
Yet of those who predict doom over billions of years, one or more will eventually get the timing right. Then the ghost of every doomsayer can whisper: I was right all along. Still, I’m not saying Fazi was going that dark, I just don’t find the lens to be very instructive or constructive.

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Hawkes

I know that. Way to literalize the mythical import.
*From another angle: fair enough reply.
Yet of those who predict doom over billions of years, one or more will eventually get the timing right. Then the ghost of every doomsayer can whisper: I was right all along. Still, I’m not saying Fazi was going that dark, I just don’t find the lens to be very instructive or constructive.

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

To me it is crystal clear. Ukraine wants the EU to buy the wheatharvest for the same amount as the wheatharvest plus the transportation fees. The EU then burns the wheatharvest in the biomass electricity plants and pays 10 percent to the Big Guy. Massive CO2 print savings, strong support of democracy and confirmation of the epicentre of virtue in Brussels.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

A peace agreement, I expect – a realistic one that recognises Russia’s legitimate security concerns and the impracticability of the ethnic Ukrainian state ever regaining control of the Donetsk basin and Crimea.

james elliott
james elliott
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Yes, Fazi does it again with his tiresome yet tireless refrain….

The only solution, as I see it, is to work harder to bring Communism into being again in the West.

Just…..one…..more…..try…

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

This article is to help people to wake up to the notion that this war must end – for the sake of the whole world. It also highlights that many people in the US and UK (richer nations) think ‘Zelensky good’, ‘Putin bad’ and that attitude only goes to perpetuate the war. What about people actually putting pressure on their leaders to broker peace.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

‘suggested course of ameliorative action’

Nobody has one. That is the problem. Nobody can agree on one.

Quote:

This appears to remain the case. As recently as this past February, Milley reiterated that the war will end at the negotiating table, insisting that there was “a rolling window” for diplomacy and “opportunities at any moment in time.” By contrast, just last week Blinken gave a speech denigrating a growing global push for ceasefire, arguing it would “legitimize Russia’s land grab” and “reward the aggressor and punish the victim.

This stance isn’t limited to Milley……

……… Calling Russian president Vladimir Putin a “dangerous” and “cornered animal” in light of Ukraine’s bombing of the Kerch Bridge in Crimea, Mullen said his nuclear threats should be taken seriously, and that it all pointed to the need to negotiate, warning that Washington needed to “do everything we possibly can to try to get to the table to resolve this thing.”

Insisting that all wars end in negotiations — “the sooner the better, as far as I’m concerned” — Mullen suggested the four eastern Ukrainian provinces Putin had illegally annexed a month earlier could form part of an “off-ramp” for him.

This stood in stark contrast to the rhetoric of both civilian officials and media commentators, with many of the latter insisting to this day on a policy of total military defeat for Russia, and even inducing the country’s break-up. At the time and since, there was widespread insistence that Putin’s nuclear threats were a mere bluff to be safely dismissed, that negotiation is akin to surrender, and that Ukraine should fight until it had regained all of its lost territory.

Source: https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/06/13/is-the-us-military-more-intent-on-ending-ukraine-war-than-us-diplomats/

The us cannot agree the best way forward it seems. Some in the military think negotiations should start now. Some in the government think Russia should be destroyed.

‘that the sponsoring concern of this article’ :

The threat of energy shortages has not been written off by the IEA. But they are very uncertain about this winter, depends on the weather and a ‘very uncertain geopolitical situation’ or something like that. If its not cold we will be fine, if it is we may not be. Again, fundamentally, nobody knows, even the IEA. Full IEA report can be found here:

https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/iea-warns-winter-natgas-crisis-if-russia-cuts-supplies

Disclaimer that zerohedge is sometimes referred to as ‘far right’. It also has a comment section full of nutters.

It’s about time they decided what we are going to do.
If we want to ‘destroy russia’ and survive the sanctions, have enough energy to INCREASE our manufacturing capacity in Europe (Germanys has contracted by 20%) so we can actually make enough stuff to win this (which we are not doing at the moment) – we need to drop net zero and spend it on getting ready to do that. Now. War economy. (Net zero is also probably pointless in this situation since we are playing nuclear brinkmanship – it doesn’t really fit with the kind to trees care about the planet narrative anyway.) Especially if America is also wanting a war with China. Seems pointless keeping the un if nobody can negotiate anything so we should probably get rid of that and spend the money saved on war too. Would make sense if nobody wants to do diplomacy anymore anyway.

Or we need to listen to the people in the US military and negotiate peace. The longer this goes on the more unstable the situation becomes and the more unpredictable. Very bad for business.

My ray of sunshine. I’m going back in my box – before I get put there again.

Alan Hawkes
Alan Hawkes
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Cassandra told the truth: she just wasn’t believed.

Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

To me it is crystal clear. Ukraine wants the EU to buy the wheatharvest for the same amount as the wheatharvest plus the transportation fees. The EU then burns the wheatharvest in the biomass electricity plants and pays 10 percent to the Big Guy. Massive CO2 print savings, strong support of democracy and confirmation of the epicentre of virtue in Brussels.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Finally, more speculative doomsaying! 😉 Not that Fazi’s musings are groundless but what is his purpose or suggested course of ameliorative action? It seems that the sponsoring concern of this article and those like it is that people aren’t yet sufficiently worried about things they have no control over. Or intellectualized anxiety seeking company in its misery.
Less military brinksmanship, more sincere diplomacy please. Fewer articles penned by Cassandra and Chicken Little.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago

Well the leaders of the European nations that are being affected, where their people are suffering and are going to suffer more obviously don’t care about that as much as they do about continuing their commitments to sanction Russia. So, they are going to have to deal with the consequences of that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Yep. There is no need to sanction Russia

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

..especially since the sanctions have affected the EU so terribly and affected Russia hardly at all!!

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The trouble is that sanctions on Russia are, in effect, sanctions on the economies and people of Western Europe. It’s proving easier, it seems, for Russia to find alternative buyers than for Western Europe to find alternative sellers. But why should the likes of Sunk and Fink and Nuland and Biden care about that? The Covid lockdowns taught then that as long as the MSM ws onside, they could get away with anything, regardless of the social and economic cost.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

..especially since the sanctions have affected the EU so terribly and affected Russia hardly at all!!

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The trouble is that sanctions on Russia are, in effect, sanctions on the economies and people of Western Europe. It’s proving easier, it seems, for Russia to find alternative buyers than for Western Europe to find alternative sellers. But why should the likes of Sunk and Fink and Nuland and Biden care about that? The Covid lockdowns taught then that as long as the MSM ws onside, they could get away with anything, regardless of the social and economic cost.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

IOW, if Europe doesn’t cave in and accept all of Putin’s demands…
…He’ll kill this dog!
Funny how you weep for the suffering people of Europe, but don’t care at all for Ukrainians who are killed every day by Russian missiles and drones.
But I forget.
Ukraine invaded Russia!
You are one of the great humanitarians of the 21st Century.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

There was a peace deal, including Ukraine neutrality, signed by Putin, initialed by Zelenskyy and Boris Johnson at the behest of Washington said no. Putin had as a sign of good faith begun pulling troops out. But people like you don’t say things like this, because they don’t fit your simplistic narrative, or you haven’t been told to think this, but you just obey your chosen propiganda channels… In 1990 James Baker had promised the Russians, if they pulled their military out of East Germany letting NATO in, that NATO would not move 1 inch East.
They gave up a huge concession, again in good faith, and we moved 1000 miles and 14 countries nearer.. Ukraine had been neutral, and mostly very friendly with Russia (with most people including comedian Zelenskyy speaking only Russian), then suddenly chaos, and an overthrow happened in 2014. Remember Joe Biden and the scandals, all the Western money started pouring in. Russia probably saw that the US wanted to use Crimea as their own naval base and took it over. Then NATO built a 400K military in Ukraine, and between 2014 and the start of the special military operation 14000 civilians in Donbas were killed, mostly with shelling by these Ukrainian forces, which kept getting build up as a threat. So, Russia acted, just as the US would act if the same thing happened in Mexico or Cuba. 
Then we also have in 2014 Victoria Nuland’s phone call recording, where among other things she said “F**k Europe” ,and spoke of hand picking the next leader of Ukraine. So, anyone with any understanding knows how this all came about, and what would come about with the actions that had taken place. Putin had been saying that Ukrainian neutrality was a red line. We knew this. Also according to the Pentagon 46 biolabs were being operated there? What were they for?
Washington knew this, paid for this, and brought this about, just like they are the ones bringing about war with China. War, among other things, is big money for the Neo-Cons, and it’s also how the US with it’s 800 military bases all over the world (far more than any other nation) controls things. We love war, we love overthrowing governments by funding NGOs. We love the power that controlling monetary policy all over the world, and the sanctions on Russia that were always part of the plan, the fact that those hurt Europe…Well, Victoria Nuland said the US position on that in 2014. 
Here is the other thing about Zelenskyy… he was elected by the Ukrainian people on one major platform issue. Implementing the Minsk agreements, and bringing peace, yet when peace was right there in grasp, he said no. Boris Johnson and NATO told him under no circumstances. Who’s really calling the shots there? That is when the “game changer” modern NATO equipment started pouring into Ukraine… one supposed game changer after another was promised to the proxy warriors.only the game never changed. None of it worked…
Now we have 350,000 dead Ukrainian troops in Washington’s proxy war and even more seriously wounded, Russia has much less, more like 30K. The Spring offensive has not even moved past the security zone into the first of 3 lines of Russian defense, and in fact Russia is now advancing. It’s politically run NATO that is sending those men to their deaths. Politics, spin, propaganda, lies… That’s why this thing has gone on so long and so many have died… Those who spread and promoted the lies are the ones to blame in as much as they denied the truth when it was presented, or discoverable.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

“signed by Putin” ha ha
Are you serious? You’d take the word of a corrupt thief who murders his political opponents?
How dumb are these people who negotiate with the Russians?
You do not waste time negotiating with Russians.
In the late 1940’s, Gunnar Myrdal, the Swedish economist and sociologist, predicted that the Americans and the British would make a mess of their diplomacy with the Russians, because they would assume that Russians are gentlemen, and that they would not make agreements which they would have no intention of carrying out.
What you can’t believe,” Myrdal said, “is what every Swede knows in his bones. The Russian culture is not a gentleman culture.”
Writing in 1985, the late Eugene V. Rostow, former Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs of the United States and Dean of Yale Law School, noted that:
The Soviet Union … is embarked on a policy of indefinite expansion fuelled by the practice of open aggression … And as a practical matter, the refusal to confront the profound differences between the foreign policies of the United States and the Soviet Union leads to all sorts of error and naivete in the formulation of Western policies … The Soviet Union is in the imperial mood of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, as a distinguished British historian has remarked – the imperial mood which the peoples and governments of the West have long since given up with relief. And the Soviet thrust for empire now threatens the state system which has evolved through trial and error since the end of the Napoleonic Wars.”
Tsars, Soviets, Putins – the lipstick changes from time to time, but the underlying reality is unaltered. For ideological reasons, liberal and left-wing Westerners have always glossed over the fact that the USSR was a “union” in much the same way the UK became a “union” – that is, a powerful country imposing “union” on its smaller neighbours, be they Celtic or Asian, respectively. Vis a vis the world outside its borders, Russia is the same imperial aggressor that it always has been.
Until the West accepts this fundamental point about Russia, then this well-intentioned foolishness will continue.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Frank, The Soviet Union and its expansionist model has been gone for a long time. Also, wars end, at some point this war will end, and we will all have to find a way to live with each other on this earth.
Often when you have a such a hostile attitude towards someone you wind up bringing out the worst in them. You also start empower the most extreme people on that side, because when you’re so over the top hostile, they feel like they need to be. This is how wars are started, not stopped.
The world needs more diplomacy, more real diplomats, not people who sound and act like angry and frightened teenagers. 

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

..for sure, we have enough angry, frightened teenagers in Washington DC! we need adults in the room.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Silly Vicky ‘Nut-job’ Nuland being Exhibit 1.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

“But that’s the future, Winston. Vickie Nuland’s boot smashing Putin’s face forever.”

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

“But that’s the future, Winston. Vickie Nuland’s boot smashing Putin’s face forever.”

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Silly Vicky ‘Nut-job’ Nuland being Exhibit 1.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Er, an invasion of Ukraine isn’t “an expansionist model???”
And I wish this war had ended yesterday. Putin could offer reasonable terms tomorrow.
You seem to be the one cheerleading for its continuance.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

..for sure, we have enough angry, frightened teenagers in Washington DC! we need adults in the room.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Er, an invasion of Ukraine isn’t “an expansionist model???”
And I wish this war had ended yesterday. Putin could offer reasonable terms tomorrow.
You seem to be the one cheerleading for its continuance.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Do you think the Western leaders are gentlemen?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Many people fall for much of Western lies and propaganda.. very few, only the completely gullible fall for all of it. You seem to be among the latter group, quoting propaganda rather than facts to support your utterly deluded views.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

In actual fact, it’s the USSA that can’t be trusted to keep its agreements: from the Black Hills Treaty to the UN Convention on Torture, to the Iran Nuclear Deal and the Minsk Agreements, the USSA has welched on every deal it made the minute it was convenient to do so. The ‘rules-based world order’ is an order where America makes the rules, and then exempts itself from them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

What say you about the actions of the United States since WWII?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

I’d say the interventions in Bosnia & Kosovo did a world of good.
As for Afghanistan, just what alternative was there? Haven’t seen too many terrorist attacks in a western country since then. Just in those that coddle them.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Ouch. Kosovo is more of a crim8nal conspiracy than a country, and allowing it to declare unilatterally independence and expel 500000 Serbs was a terrible mistake. The Dayton Accords were well meant, but just produced a frozen conflict. Afghanistan was not responsible for 9/11: why didnt Bush declare war on Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, who were?

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Ouch. Kosovo is more of a crim8nal conspiracy than a country, and allowing it to declare unilatterally independence and expel 500000 Serbs was a terrible mistake. The Dayton Accords were well meant, but just produced a frozen conflict. Afghanistan was not responsible for 9/11: why didnt Bush declare war on Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, who were?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

I’d say the interventions in Bosnia & Kosovo did a world of good.
As for Afghanistan, just what alternative was there? Haven’t seen too many terrorist attacks in a western country since then. Just in those that coddle them.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Who murdered and quartered the Ukrainian opposition journalist? Ukraine is unusual in having imprisoned a President and threatened imprisonment of two, Poroshenko and Yanukovich. While the UK’s Crown Agents refused to pay huge bribes to the Ukrainian customs for their medical aid after the 2014 coup. Etc.

Thomas Bengtsson
Thomas Bengtsson
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“What you can’t believe,” Myrdal said, “is what every Swede knows in his bones. The Russian culture is not a gentleman culture.”

As a Swede I support this wholeheartedly.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Frank, The Soviet Union and its expansionist model has been gone for a long time. Also, wars end, at some point this war will end, and we will all have to find a way to live with each other on this earth.
Often when you have a such a hostile attitude towards someone you wind up bringing out the worst in them. You also start empower the most extreme people on that side, because when you’re so over the top hostile, they feel like they need to be. This is how wars are started, not stopped.
The world needs more diplomacy, more real diplomats, not people who sound and act like angry and frightened teenagers. 

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Do you think the Western leaders are gentlemen?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Many people fall for much of Western lies and propaganda.. very few, only the completely gullible fall for all of it. You seem to be among the latter group, quoting propaganda rather than facts to support your utterly deluded views.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

In actual fact, it’s the USSA that can’t be trusted to keep its agreements: from the Black Hills Treaty to the UN Convention on Torture, to the Iran Nuclear Deal and the Minsk Agreements, the USSA has welched on every deal it made the minute it was convenient to do so. The ‘rules-based world order’ is an order where America makes the rules, and then exempts itself from them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

What say you about the actions of the United States since WWII?

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Who murdered and quartered the Ukrainian opposition journalist? Ukraine is unusual in having imprisoned a President and threatened imprisonment of two, Poroshenko and Yanukovich. While the UK’s Crown Agents refused to pay huge bribes to the Ukrainian customs for their medical aid after the 2014 coup. Etc.

Thomas Bengtsson
Thomas Bengtsson
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“What you can’t believe,” Myrdal said, “is what every Swede knows in his bones. The Russian culture is not a gentleman culture.”

As a Swede I support this wholeheartedly.

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

“Steve White” otherwise known as Russian PR chap

Peter Spurrier
Peter Spurrier
1 year ago

Yes. I tried to vote him down but it came out as several upvotes. This kind of thing keeps happening. Can anyone tell me why?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Spurrier

I assume its an ‘update’. Maybe I’m naïve and Jo Hacker is at work?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I pay zero attention to those.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I pay zero attention to those.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Spurrier

It usually reflects the votes that have occurred since you started writing your own comment or last refreshed your screen.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

It’s too complicated.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

We may never know for certain, for we are just the (un)herd, convinced of our autonomy as we are led though digital pastures according to the whims of the managerial elite. Nah! Not really, but kind of.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

We may never know for certain, for we are just the (un)herd, convinced of our autonomy as we are led though digital pastures according to the whims of the managerial elite. Nah! Not really, but kind of.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

It’s too complicated.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Spurrier

I keep asking that but I never get an answer. The voting system seems nuts. I’ve asked for a simple up/down voting system.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Spurrier

I assume its an ‘update’. Maybe I’m naïve and Jo Hacker is at work?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Spurrier

It usually reflects the votes that have occurred since you started writing your own comment or last refreshed your screen.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Spurrier

I keep asking that but I never get an answer. The voting system seems nuts. I’ve asked for a simple up/down voting system.

Ben Notsay
Ben Notsay
1 year ago

The usual response is to tar the opposition with sweeping, divisive generalisations. Then, cancel them.

Try responding to the historical accuracy of Steve’s answer.

Then try to assert that the USA isn’t the greatest purveyor of evil – all in the name of profiteering and resource acquisition.

Good luck with that – or are you, indeed, a NEOCON PR guy?

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Notsay

I think he is, Ben. That or a Chat GPT bot. Whichever it is, there’s a lot of them about, flooding BtL comments sections with their sneering, narcissistic, sanctimonious, ignorant Corporate dreck and massively up-voting each other in an effort to convince more intelligent and sceptical UnHerd readers that they’re in a tiny minority and should just be quiet or fall into line with The Narrative.
It’s like the Great Covid Lockdown & Vaccine Scam all over again…

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Oooh, you’ve seen beyond the curtain to the Great Manipulator behind it.
No need bother and read the news, when you know it’s all a deep CONSPIRACY…

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Heard of the Grudge Unit, or the disinformation unit?

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Heard of the Grudge Unit, or the disinformation unit?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Oooh, you’ve seen beyond the curtain to the Great Manipulator behind it.
No need bother and read the news, when you know it’s all a deep CONSPIRACY…

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Notsay

Nice conspiracy theory.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Notsay

I think he is, Ben. That or a Chat GPT bot. Whichever it is, there’s a lot of them about, flooding BtL comments sections with their sneering, narcissistic, sanctimonious, ignorant Corporate dreck and massively up-voting each other in an effort to convince more intelligent and sceptical UnHerd readers that they’re in a tiny minority and should just be quiet or fall into line with The Narrative.
It’s like the Great Covid Lockdown & Vaccine Scam all over again…

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Notsay

Nice conspiracy theory.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Ad hominem.. the mark of the man who has lost the argument.. AH, the banner ofthe defeated.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago

Says ‘William Cameron’ – an identity created by the Pentagon Public Opinion Formation Unit’s Typical UK Name Generator programme, as also deployed at the Daily Telegraph.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

I admit I’m a bot.
I live in a CIA computer.
It’s nice and comfy there!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

You’ve already revealed your nefarious complicity by daring to assert anything apart from the sacred creed: “Big Bad Uncle Sam is the Greatest Purveyor of Evil in the world!!!”
It explains everything…even when it doesn’t.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

You’ve already revealed your nefarious complicity by daring to assert anything apart from the sacred creed: “Big Bad Uncle Sam is the Greatest Purveyor of Evil in the world!!!”
It explains everything…even when it doesn’t.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

I admit I’m a bot.
I live in a CIA computer.
It’s nice and comfy there!

Peter Spurrier
Peter Spurrier
1 year ago

Yes. I tried to vote him down but it came out as several upvotes. This kind of thing keeps happening. Can anyone tell me why?

Ben Notsay
Ben Notsay
1 year ago

The usual response is to tar the opposition with sweeping, divisive generalisations. Then, cancel them.

Try responding to the historical accuracy of Steve’s answer.

Then try to assert that the USA isn’t the greatest purveyor of evil – all in the name of profiteering and resource acquisition.

Good luck with that – or are you, indeed, a NEOCON PR guy?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Ad hominem.. the mark of the man who has lost the argument.. AH, the banner ofthe defeated.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago

Says ‘William Cameron’ – an identity created by the Pentagon Public Opinion Formation Unit’s Typical UK Name Generator programme, as also deployed at the Daily Telegraph.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
David McCormick
David McCormick
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Interesting if you vote this person down the vote house up! Obviously a Russian troll with a rigged vote. Ignore this person

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Exactly right, in every respect.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Yep, that’s a fair summary of events to date. Raytheon, the Pentagon and the MoD can flood the comments sections with as many trolls as they like ( they seem to have redoubled their efforts following the complete bloody failure of Ukraine’s hopelessly under-resourced ‘counter-offensive’ effort). But thanks to Col Douglas Macgregor, Seymour Hersh, John Mearsheimer and other authoritative independents, informed readers now know the real situation. All the 77 Brigade ‘opinion management’ efforts in the world won’t change the facts on the ground.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Seymour “poor waif in his underwear” Hersh?
You DO see his story about Nordstream came directly from the FSB as well?
Easy to fool an old man who wants one last scoop…

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Seymour “poor waif in his underwear” Hersh?
You DO see his story about Nordstream came directly from the FSB as well?
Easy to fool an old man who wants one last scoop…

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Thank you Steve for the facts. Sadly, many of the commenters on this thread are fully geopolitically illiterate.

Simon S
Simon S
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Thanks for putting together this excellent compilation. I think most Westerners just do not wish to accept how much power our military overlords in the US wield over us.

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon S
Hardee Hodges
Hardee Hodges
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Pointless history. That was then, now is now. I see Ukraine making headway overcoming Russian defenses despite being slow rolled on materiel. A bunch of aircraft would help a lot. Just in time forgot the need for pilot training.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Hardee Hodges

Noone will explain what happened to Ukraine’s own arms production. According to Wiki, fourth largest in the world before 2914. I think it was later nationalized, which might be why they do not produce their own armaments, despite being the victims of a horrendous invasion for so long. No new arms factories built?

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Hardee Hodges

Noone will explain what happened to Ukraine’s own arms production. According to Wiki, fourth largest in the world before 2914. I think it was later nationalized, which might be why they do not produce their own armaments, despite being the victims of a horrendous invasion for so long. No new arms factories built?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

“signed by Putin” ha ha
Are you serious? You’d take the word of a corrupt thief who murders his political opponents?
How dumb are these people who negotiate with the Russians?
You do not waste time negotiating with Russians.
In the late 1940’s, Gunnar Myrdal, the Swedish economist and sociologist, predicted that the Americans and the British would make a mess of their diplomacy with the Russians, because they would assume that Russians are gentlemen, and that they would not make agreements which they would have no intention of carrying out.
What you can’t believe,” Myrdal said, “is what every Swede knows in his bones. The Russian culture is not a gentleman culture.”
Writing in 1985, the late Eugene V. Rostow, former Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs of the United States and Dean of Yale Law School, noted that:
The Soviet Union … is embarked on a policy of indefinite expansion fuelled by the practice of open aggression … And as a practical matter, the refusal to confront the profound differences between the foreign policies of the United States and the Soviet Union leads to all sorts of error and naivete in the formulation of Western policies … The Soviet Union is in the imperial mood of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, as a distinguished British historian has remarked – the imperial mood which the peoples and governments of the West have long since given up with relief. And the Soviet thrust for empire now threatens the state system which has evolved through trial and error since the end of the Napoleonic Wars.”
Tsars, Soviets, Putins – the lipstick changes from time to time, but the underlying reality is unaltered. For ideological reasons, liberal and left-wing Westerners have always glossed over the fact that the USSR was a “union” in much the same way the UK became a “union” – that is, a powerful country imposing “union” on its smaller neighbours, be they Celtic or Asian, respectively. Vis a vis the world outside its borders, Russia is the same imperial aggressor that it always has been.
Until the West accepts this fundamental point about Russia, then this well-intentioned foolishness will continue.

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

“Steve White” otherwise known as Russian PR chap

David McCormick
David McCormick
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Interesting if you vote this person down the vote house up! Obviously a Russian troll with a rigged vote. Ignore this person

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Exactly right, in every respect.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Yep, that’s a fair summary of events to date. Raytheon, the Pentagon and the MoD can flood the comments sections with as many trolls as they like ( they seem to have redoubled their efforts following the complete bloody failure of Ukraine’s hopelessly under-resourced ‘counter-offensive’ effort). But thanks to Col Douglas Macgregor, Seymour Hersh, John Mearsheimer and other authoritative independents, informed readers now know the real situation. All the 77 Brigade ‘opinion management’ efforts in the world won’t change the facts on the ground.

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Thank you Steve for the facts. Sadly, many of the commenters on this thread are fully geopolitically illiterate.

Simon S
Simon S
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Thanks for putting together this excellent compilation. I think most Westerners just do not wish to accept how much power our military overlords in the US wield over us.

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon S
Hardee Hodges
Hardee Hodges
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Pointless history. That was then, now is now. I see Ukraine making headway overcoming Russian defenses despite being slow rolled on materiel. A bunch of aircraft would help a lot. Just in time forgot the need for pilot training.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Actually if you add “ian speaking Donbas” you’re correct, because it is true that the N¤z¡ Azov Ukraine did indeed invade Russian speaking Donbas, killing 14,000 of its ownc citizens over an 8 year period from 2008 to 2014.. That is undeniable.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes. The BBC reported regularly and extensively on this during 2014-20. Now that it no longer fits The Narrative, of course, the BBC ignores its own earlier reporting and instead claims that Ukrainian N*zism is, er, dastardly Russian propaganda….

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes it is deniable.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Zelensky boasted at how good his troops ,plus mercenaries from Georgia and Chechen, had got at shelling the Donbas. And their old people still cant receive pensions. Yet Ukraine, recently the fourth largest arms exporter in the world,cant seem to produce its own armaments.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Zelensky boasted at how good his troops ,plus mercenaries from Georgia and Chechen, had got at shelling the Donbas. And their old people still cant receive pensions. Yet Ukraine, recently the fourth largest arms exporter in the world,cant seem to produce its own armaments.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes. The BBC reported regularly and extensively on this during 2014-20. Now that it no longer fits The Narrative, of course, the BBC ignores its own earlier reporting and instead claims that Ukrainian N*zism is, er, dastardly Russian propaganda….

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes it is deniable.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Perhaps their government should have respected the Minsk Agreements? Perhaps their government should now negotiate terms, rather than cling on to Vicky Nuland’s rainbow fantasy of a NATO-Stonewall flag over Sebastopol?
Further military and economic efforts against Russia are a dead end. They’re going nowhere, and anything that happens between now and a peace agreement is nothing but a waste of money (ours included), time and lives.

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Russia moved to protect the Russophile people of the Donbas from the ongoing slaughter by the hyper nationalist Kiev regime from 2014 to 2022. That evil Kiev regime was installed by probably the vilest biped currently living on the planet – one Victoria Nuland. (Yes! – the one who said “f**k the EU”) Nuland is in the same category as that other vile biped Madeleine Albright. (Yes! the one who was quite content that over half a million Iraqi children died from malnutrition because of her sanctions).
More than 10,000 innocent civilians in the Donbas butchered by the Banderites/Nulandites was the final straw for Russia. Since the West did nothing to stop the slaughter (in fact they financed it!) something had to done.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

There was a peace deal, including Ukraine neutrality, signed by Putin, initialed by Zelenskyy and Boris Johnson at the behest of Washington said no. Putin had as a sign of good faith begun pulling troops out. But people like you don’t say things like this, because they don’t fit your simplistic narrative, or you haven’t been told to think this, but you just obey your chosen propiganda channels… In 1990 James Baker had promised the Russians, if they pulled their military out of East Germany letting NATO in, that NATO would not move 1 inch East.
They gave up a huge concession, again in good faith, and we moved 1000 miles and 14 countries nearer.. Ukraine had been neutral, and mostly very friendly with Russia (with most people including comedian Zelenskyy speaking only Russian), then suddenly chaos, and an overthrow happened in 2014. Remember Joe Biden and the scandals, all the Western money started pouring in. Russia probably saw that the US wanted to use Crimea as their own naval base and took it over. Then NATO built a 400K military in Ukraine, and between 2014 and the start of the special military operation 14000 civilians in Donbas were killed, mostly with shelling by these Ukrainian forces, which kept getting build up as a threat. So, Russia acted, just as the US would act if the same thing happened in Mexico or Cuba. 
Then we also have in 2014 Victoria Nuland’s phone call recording, where among other things she said “F**k Europe” ,and spoke of hand picking the next leader of Ukraine. So, anyone with any understanding knows how this all came about, and what would come about with the actions that had taken place. Putin had been saying that Ukrainian neutrality was a red line. We knew this. Also according to the Pentagon 46 biolabs were being operated there? What were they for?
Washington knew this, paid for this, and brought this about, just like they are the ones bringing about war with China. War, among other things, is big money for the Neo-Cons, and it’s also how the US with it’s 800 military bases all over the world (far more than any other nation) controls things. We love war, we love overthrowing governments by funding NGOs. We love the power that controlling monetary policy all over the world, and the sanctions on Russia that were always part of the plan, the fact that those hurt Europe…Well, Victoria Nuland said the US position on that in 2014. 
Here is the other thing about Zelenskyy… he was elected by the Ukrainian people on one major platform issue. Implementing the Minsk agreements, and bringing peace, yet when peace was right there in grasp, he said no. Boris Johnson and NATO told him under no circumstances. Who’s really calling the shots there? That is when the “game changer” modern NATO equipment started pouring into Ukraine… one supposed game changer after another was promised to the proxy warriors.only the game never changed. None of it worked…
Now we have 350,000 dead Ukrainian troops in Washington’s proxy war and even more seriously wounded, Russia has much less, more like 30K. The Spring offensive has not even moved past the security zone into the first of 3 lines of Russian defense, and in fact Russia is now advancing. It’s politically run NATO that is sending those men to their deaths. Politics, spin, propaganda, lies… That’s why this thing has gone on so long and so many have died… Those who spread and promoted the lies are the ones to blame in as much as they denied the truth when it was presented, or discoverable.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Actually if you add “ian speaking Donbas” you’re correct, because it is true that the N¤z¡ Azov Ukraine did indeed invade Russian speaking Donbas, killing 14,000 of its ownc citizens over an 8 year period from 2008 to 2014.. That is undeniable.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Perhaps their government should have respected the Minsk Agreements? Perhaps their government should now negotiate terms, rather than cling on to Vicky Nuland’s rainbow fantasy of a NATO-Stonewall flag over Sebastopol?
Further military and economic efforts against Russia are a dead end. They’re going nowhere, and anything that happens between now and a peace agreement is nothing but a waste of money (ours included), time and lives.

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Russia moved to protect the Russophile people of the Donbas from the ongoing slaughter by the hyper nationalist Kiev regime from 2014 to 2022. That evil Kiev regime was installed by probably the vilest biped currently living on the planet – one Victoria Nuland. (Yes! – the one who said “f**k the EU”) Nuland is in the same category as that other vile biped Madeleine Albright. (Yes! the one who was quite content that over half a million Iraqi children died from malnutrition because of her sanctions).
More than 10,000 innocent civilians in the Donbas butchered by the Banderites/Nulandites was the final straw for Russia. Since the West did nothing to stop the slaughter (in fact they financed it!) something had to done.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Whereas Putin should never have to deal with the consequences of his invasion and destruction of much of Ukraine.
That’s impeccable logic.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Sure, he should, just like Biden should if he invaded Mexico after he found that a very anti-American environment developed, and 400,000 foreign trained and funded troops gathered on our Southern border, shelled killed 14000 English speaking civilians, and then we found there were 46 foreign funded biolabs there.
 If Biden sent a small 40K force there in a “special operation”, hoping the ones behind the troop buildup on or borders would negotiate continued neutrality, and sign peace accords stopping killing English speakers… If Biden did that, then he should pay the consequences of it.
Even more if no one would do a peace deal, but nations hostile to America went all out, poured weapons into Mexico, trained even more troops, sanctioned the US, stealing billions of their money abroad, and tried to keep them from ever doing business in the world again hoping the US would collapse from the inside.
If that happened and Biden and most Americans then saw the issue as a matter of the survival of the US and therefore said, we will have to build up and defeat Mexico, and we built up our military to 750,000 troops (on our way up to 1.2 Million), and began to invade all of Mexico killing most of the 400,000 army that had been raised up by those hostile to us, Biden should have to pay the consequences of that.
But my question to you is, would all of that, if it happened, be in Biden’s and America’s strategic interests to do? Yes or no? There is where the more argument should be. 

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

“Steve White” otherwise known as Russian PR chap

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago

Have I said anything untrue? I love my country America. I wish it was not controlled by such corrupt men like Joe who we now know along with his son Hunter got so much money from corrupt Ukrainian business men for doing favors. The whole lying narrative driven issue stinks of corruption. meanwhile we have 100,000 per year of young Americans (including a relative of mine) dying of drug overdoses, mostly related to fentanyl coming across that border. 
Our strategic interests are to control our own borders, and yet we are engaged in proxy wars and other things.
I have a problem pretending like a Slavic border war was America’s real strategic problem and not our own borders, our own crumbling infrastructure and society.
Getting us focused on the real issues being ignored in place of the manufactured and spun issues is very pro-American.
In fact, slamming me for helping to do that that seems like something people who want to just use and or destroy America would do.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
Katherin MacCuish
Katherin MacCuish
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Ah , so a conspiracy theorist then

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago

‘Russian troll’. ‘Conspiracy theorist’.
Is that the best you 77 Brigade Chat GPTbots can come up with? It’s increasingly noticeable that it’s coherent, well-informed, well-evidenced points of view on one side of the argument – and nothing but simplistic sanctimony and empty, puerile ad hominems on the other.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Col MacGregor and Scott make “informed, well-evidenced points”–about how Ukraine is gong to fall in three weeks.
So Kyiv has fallen…25 times!
Wow, that’s something…

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Col MacGregor and Scott make “informed, well-evidenced points”–about how Ukraine is gong to fall in three weeks.
So Kyiv has fallen…25 times!
Wow, that’s something…

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago

‘Russian troll’. ‘Conspiracy theorist’.
Is that the best you 77 Brigade Chat GPTbots can come up with? It’s increasingly noticeable that it’s coherent, well-informed, well-evidenced points of view on one side of the argument – and nothing but simplistic sanctimony and empty, puerile ad hominems on the other.

Katherin MacCuish
Katherin MacCuish
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Ah , so a conspiracy theorist then

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago

AHAHAAA!!!! And there you have it, ‘William Cameron’! YOU – HAVE – NO – ANSWER! So all you can do is throw the one, pathetic little shot 77 Brigade arms you with – ‘Wussian troll!’ – like a chimpanzee throwing its own faeces.
As a taxpayer, I seriously object to the MoD wasting my money on employing dossers like you to type dreck like that. Or to employ someone to generate a ‘William Cameron’ Chat GPT bot, which – judging by the 3-watt character of your input – is what you are far more likely to be.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Agree, but what is the 77 Brigade?

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Agree, but what is the 77 Brigade?

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago

Who are you really? A troll or a robot?

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago

Have I said anything untrue? I love my country America. I wish it was not controlled by such corrupt men like Joe who we now know along with his son Hunter got so much money from corrupt Ukrainian business men for doing favors. The whole lying narrative driven issue stinks of corruption. meanwhile we have 100,000 per year of young Americans (including a relative of mine) dying of drug overdoses, mostly related to fentanyl coming across that border. 
Our strategic interests are to control our own borders, and yet we are engaged in proxy wars and other things.
I have a problem pretending like a Slavic border war was America’s real strategic problem and not our own borders, our own crumbling infrastructure and society.
Getting us focused on the real issues being ignored in place of the manufactured and spun issues is very pro-American.
In fact, slamming me for helping to do that that seems like something people who want to just use and or destroy America would do.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago

AHAHAAA!!!! And there you have it, ‘William Cameron’! YOU – HAVE – NO – ANSWER! So all you can do is throw the one, pathetic little shot 77 Brigade arms you with – ‘Wussian troll!’ – like a chimpanzee throwing its own faeces.
As a taxpayer, I seriously object to the MoD wasting my money on employing dossers like you to type dreck like that. Or to employ someone to generate a ‘William Cameron’ Chat GPT bot, which – judging by the 3-watt character of your input – is what you are far more likely to be.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago

Who are you really? A troll or a robot?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

My uptick changed a +14 to a -4.. yep, I think DC Hacker is working overtime here! My advice: see downticks as marks of approval!

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

There is no doubt that there is something sinister afoot!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

I’ve been complaining about the voting system for some time but seemed to be the lone voice. Perhaps, now, if more people are dissatisfied something will be done about it. The squeeky wheel thing.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

I’ve been complaining about the voting system for some time but seemed to be the lone voice. Perhaps, now, if more people are dissatisfied something will be done about it. The squeeky wheel thing.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

There is no doubt that there is something sinister afoot!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Wow! 46 bio-labs!
Sure the US didn’t have just 45?
That would be OK.

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

“Steve White” otherwise known as Russian PR chap

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

My uptick changed a +14 to a -4.. yep, I think DC Hacker is working overtime here! My advice: see downticks as marks of approval!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Wow! 46 bio-labs!
Sure the US didn’t have just 45?
That would be OK.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Unless the genocidal atracks on Russian speaking Ukrainians were to continue, Putin had no choice. He also had to defend his homeland against the NATO threat just as the US defended itself against the Russian threat in Cuba in 1962.
If the thousands of Americans currently living in Mexico were to be shelled and killed by a new Pro Russian regime (after Russia orchestrated a coup in Mexico) how long before the US would invade Mexico? ..or would they try for 8 years to negotiate a peace settlement like Putin did. I await your honest answer..

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Sure, he should, just like Biden should if he invaded Mexico after he found that a very anti-American environment developed, and 400,000 foreign trained and funded troops gathered on our Southern border, shelled killed 14000 English speaking civilians, and then we found there were 46 foreign funded biolabs there.
 If Biden sent a small 40K force there in a “special operation”, hoping the ones behind the troop buildup on or borders would negotiate continued neutrality, and sign peace accords stopping killing English speakers… If Biden did that, then he should pay the consequences of it.
Even more if no one would do a peace deal, but nations hostile to America went all out, poured weapons into Mexico, trained even more troops, sanctioned the US, stealing billions of their money abroad, and tried to keep them from ever doing business in the world again hoping the US would collapse from the inside.
If that happened and Biden and most Americans then saw the issue as a matter of the survival of the US and therefore said, we will have to build up and defeat Mexico, and we built up our military to 750,000 troops (on our way up to 1.2 Million), and began to invade all of Mexico killing most of the 400,000 army that had been raised up by those hostile to us, Biden should have to pay the consequences of that.
But my question to you is, would all of that, if it happened, be in Biden’s and America’s strategic interests to do? Yes or no? There is where the more argument should be. 

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Unless the genocidal atracks on Russian speaking Ukrainians were to continue, Putin had no choice. He also had to defend his homeland against the NATO threat just as the US defended itself against the Russian threat in Cuba in 1962.
If the thousands of Americans currently living in Mexico were to be shelled and killed by a new Pro Russian regime (after Russia orchestrated a coup in Mexico) how long before the US would invade Mexico? ..or would they try for 8 years to negotiate a peace settlement like Putin did. I await your honest answer..

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

As if you care. You must be getting worried ha ha

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

At least try and make your comments sound as if they were made by an adult.
Who knows, you might be taken seriously.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

These 77 Brigade trolls all seem to have a mental age of about 15 – and about that much historical knowledge and understanding too.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

These 77 Brigade trolls all seem to have a mental age of about 15 – and about that much historical knowledge and understanding too.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I thought you had a brain Frank? ..turns out you’re just another ad hominem troll.. I’m disappointed.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Frank McCusker was on -1, I brought him to -2 but lo and behold, +10! Ha ha.. this is too childish..

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Frank McCusker was on -1, I brought him to -2 but lo and behold, +10! Ha ha.. this is too childish..

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

At least try and make your comments sound as if they were made by an adult.
Who knows, you might be taken seriously.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I thought you had a brain Frank? ..turns out you’re just another ad hominem troll.. I’m disappointed.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

EU leaders’ faces are so brown from licking uncle Sam’s rear end they’re likely to choke..

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Pishi Sunk’s especially.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Pishi Sunk’s especially.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Yep. There is no need to sanction Russia

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

IOW, if Europe doesn’t cave in and accept all of Putin’s demands…
…He’ll kill this dog!
Funny how you weep for the suffering people of Europe, but don’t care at all for Ukrainians who are killed every day by Russian missiles and drones.
But I forget.
Ukraine invaded Russia!
You are one of the great humanitarians of the 21st Century.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

Whereas Putin should never have to deal with the consequences of his invasion and destruction of much of Ukraine.
That’s impeccable logic.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

As if you care. You must be getting worried ha ha

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

EU leaders’ faces are so brown from licking uncle Sam’s rear end they’re likely to choke..

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago

Well the leaders of the European nations that are being affected, where their people are suffering and are going to suffer more obviously don’t care about that as much as they do about continuing their commitments to sanction Russia. So, they are going to have to deal with the consequences of that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve White
Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 year ago

What we need is good sense in our leaders. With good will, humility, and love, we can bring peace to our long-suffering world.