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Katie was right (Fred Kfoury III/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images)
One of the few skills I've retained from my teen years in the public school system of mid-Nineties America is the ability to get undressed in front of people without ever actually being naked. It is an art form particular to girls of a certain age, mastered in the locker room in the five minutes between gym class and the rest of the day: a sort of anti-strip tease in which you take off your sports bra while still wearing a T-shirt, always taking care not to expose so much as a millimetre of bare breast.
This method of bra removal was part of a larger, elaborate set of rules, unwritten but ironclad, whereby the locker room was a place to be naked as little as humanly possible. Being in your underwear was okay, but only if you were clearly making haste to put on more clothing. The bathing facilities, it was understood, were for decoration only and not to be used; people still talked about the time a few years back when a girl named Katie, a transfer student from some other country, or possibly another planet, actually took a shower after gym class one day â here you would lower your voice to a dramatic whisper â in the nude.
This cautionary tale of Katie revealed the true nature of our shared pathology: it wasn't just that we didn't want to be seen naked, or to see each other naked. It was that allowing yourself to be seen naked signified something sinister about you. You had to be some kind of pervert, an exhibitionist weirdo who lacked the good sense to be ashamed of your body â which was, of course, disgusting, and should be hidden at all costs.
Obviously, this was not a healthy way to be. Obviously, we all had eating disorders. Obviously, the kids were not, in this particular case, all right â or right at all. Itâs strange, then, that in 2023, the neuroses of a bunch of 15-year-old girls trying to hide their developing bodies from each other in an upstate New York locker room seem to have somehow become the basis for a new Western paradigm. Nudity is now seen as invariably sexual, highly suspicious, and probably dangerous, particularly to children.
In the UK, uproar recently followed the release of a TV series called Naked Education, in which a group of adult educators appeared in front of teen students fully unclothed, as part of a lesson about the diversity of the human form. In Australia, a surf club banned members from being nude in its changing rooms â including in the showers â in the name of protecting children from the traumatic sight of naked adults. In the United States, the principal of a school in Tallahassee, Florida, was forced to resign after three parents complained about students having seen a picture of Michelangeloâs David sculpture during art class, stone penis and all. To be fair, this last incident may be somewhat more complicated than the initial reporting made it seem â but the powerful prudery it implies has form. In 2002, for instance, two statues in the Justice Department's Great Hall were ordered to be shielded by drapes, because Attorney General John Ashcroft was apparently perturbed by the Spirit of Justice's stone breast lurking over his shoulder in photographs.
[su_unherd_related fttitle="More from this author" author="Kat Rosenfield"]https://staging.unherd.com/2021/04/do-boobs-have-to-be-political/[/su_unherd_related]
Of course, decompensating over the sight of a naked body â supposedly to protect children â is itself bizarrely childish. It is reminiscent of a scene in Love Actually where an increasingly exasperated Andrew Lincoln instructs a group of giggling schoolgirls that the photograph they're laughing at â a rear view of several men wearing Santa hats and nothing else â is "not funny, it's art!" (This job was admittedly not made easier by the fact that at least some of these photos were, objectively, ridiculous.) And there's something very teenaged, too, about the inability to divorce nudity from its naughtier, sexier contexts â as if nudity which fails to titillate is not just taboo, but actually repulsive. It's the Seinfeld episode about good versus bad naked (remember: "Naked hair brushing, good! Naked crouching, bad"), all grown up and coming soon to a set of locker room bylaws near you.
It's not hard to understand how we got here. The mass awareness-raising of the #MeToo movement does not mix well with the ongoing brouhaha over sex and gender education in schools. And with the rare but highly-publicised instance wherein a genuine pervert exploits the availability of clothing-optional environments for his own unsavoury purposes, some people were always going to decide that we're better safe (and fully clothed) than sorry. But what happens to a society in which the concept of non-sexualised nudity simply ceases to exist? It's not just art that gets weird; it's everything.
The importance of non-sexual nudity is less about pleasing the eyes than calming the mind: in this space you can be naked without worrying about what you look like naked. In cultures with fewer sexual hang-ups, nudity can even be an ice-breaker. Among young folk in Stockholm, a friend recently explained, the co-ed sauna can be a first date destination, ostensibly to remove the pressure of wondering if and when you'll be naked together, so that you can focus on more important areas of compatibility.
I can understand the appeal of this approach, particularly for those who haven't yet reached that age when going into a hot room naked causes even the normally-supple parts of your body to start melting, Jabba-the-Hutt-like, toward the floor. Even leaving aside the aesthetic benefits of being young, hot and in the nude, there's also the intimacy of it. Not intimacy as in physical, but the kind where you don't rush to cover your cellulite with a blanket the second the lights come on. The "I'll let you see my flaccid penis in a hot room" kind of intimacy. The kind where you are unguarded and unselfconscious, allowing yourself to be seen.
[su_unherd_related fttitle="Suggested reading" author="Sarah Ditum"]https://staging.unherd.com/2020/07/the-shock-of-the-nude/[/su_unherd_related]
Meanwhile, the more taboo nudity becomes in America, the more people seem to seek out ever more elaborate pretences for getting naked. Naked yoga classes. Naked dinner parties. Naked bowling nights! (Yes, you can bring your own balls.) Or how about Naked and Afraid, a reality survival series in which the only exciting part of the contestants' titular nudity is the possibility that one of them, at any moment, might be bitten on the genitals by a venomous snake. Despite the supposedly traumatising nature of naked bodies, it's almost like we're aching to be naked, and to see other people that way â in contexts where sex is a distant afterthought.
In a moment when trust is in short supply â not just between individuals in intimate relationships, but on a societal scale â perhaps the desire to curtail nudity stands in for a fear of intimacy, and from the sense that we just can't tolerate being so vulnerable around people we don't know well. It's an irony of our hyperconnected moment that we are more suspicious of each other than ever, more obsessed with catching each other â ideally on video â in violation of whatever social edicts that convey in-group status. Social media has given us an unprecedented window into other peopleâs heads, only to leave us consumed by fear of all the things we're sure they're thinking but not saying. Our most popular social movements, from #MeToo to MAGA, are at least partially premised on the notion that other people are secret sexual predators, or violent bigots, or sneering elites; in any case, they hate you, and wish to do you harm.
But when we set out to "protect" young people from predation by shielding them from the sight of a naked body in any context, what are we really teaching them to avoid, to be afraid of? Just like in that gym locker room all those years ago, the message seems to be not just that it's dangerous to see nudity, or dangerous to be nude; it's also that there's something unseemly about being okay with being naked, be it literally or figuratively. Don't you realise that your true shape is disgusting? Don't you know you're supposed to be ashamed?
Anyway, because teenagers are the way they are, all we're really doing by shielding them from nudity is allowing their entire education about the normal range of human anatomy to be dictated by the material they seek out on their own â which is to say, by porn. Needless to say, this is a bad way for kids to form a factually accurate understanding of what normal naked bodies look like, never mind what it teaches them about sex. But it also reinforces the notion that the two can't ever be separated.
Surely this undermines what young people should actually learn about the human body: that it's not just a vehicle for sexual activity, or an object of sexual desire, but a miraculous machine in its own right, the vessel that moves us through the world and contains everything that we are. And surely what we should strive for is a world in which people can sometimes be naked â not performatively, not gratuitously, but in the unselfconscious way of a person who takes off her sweaty clothes and gets in the shower, because there is a shower, and that is what a shower is for.
This is the thing I've realised about Katie, all these years later: she was the only one being normal. The rest of us, nearly strangling ourselves with our own undergarments in our desperation not to be seen naked, were the weird ones.
katrosenfield
Kat Rosenfield is an UnHerd columnist and co-host of the Feminine Chaos podcast. Her latest novel is You Must Remember This.
katrosenfield
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SubscribeThe article doesn’t seem to make a distinction between seeing naked people of your own sex and seeing naked people of the opposite sex.
I grew up in Eastern Europe and going completely naked in women’s sauna was completely normal and nothing to be uncomfortable about. But there was still strict separation between men’s and women’s spaces and you were not supposed to get naked in front of the opposite sex in public spaces.
There isn’t such a distinction in the Germanic countries – everyone is naked in a bathhouse.
But in other European countries it is normal for both sexes to be naked in the same area. So your point is a local one, not a general one.
There isn’t such a distinction in the Germanic countries – everyone is naked in a bathhouse.
But in other European countries it is normal for both sexes to be naked in the same area. So your point is a local one, not a general one.
The article doesn’t seem to make a distinction between seeing naked people of your own sex and seeing naked people of the opposite sex.
I grew up in Eastern Europe and going completely naked in women’s sauna was completely normal and nothing to be uncomfortable about. But there was still strict separation between men’s and women’s spaces and you were not supposed to get naked in front of the opposite sex in public spaces.
The linked article to the story about the headmaster and Michelangelo’s David is truly terrifying.
No matter how how that Governor or whatever he is tries to spin it, a headmaster was forced to resign because just 3 parents complained that they werenât given advanced warning that students were shown possibly the worlds most famous statue in a lesson about classics.
I agree thereâs no place or CRT and the like but this alternative is just as bad when those in charge canât explain what it is thatâs actually being taught. Like the woke they appear to be taking existing phrases and pretending they mean something else to avoid debating the subject at hand
Not really.
But I say that recognizing that there are portions of the story we do not yet know (and may never know).
On the surface, certainly, it seems extreme for the Board (not the Governor) to ask for a resignation after 3 parents complained….but reading the subsequent interview with the Board’s chair would clearly indicate her forced resignation was in response to a series of incidents stretching across the whole school year. As Bishop himself says, the issue was not the nude David, it was her — presumably — consistent violation of school policy, re: building and maintaining parental trust via school/parent communication.
That — in and of itself — would indeed be grounds for termination, regardless of whether or not a naked David was involved in the most recent (& terminal) incident.
The point Bishop is making in the interview is a reasonable one: the charter school provides a Classical Education. That Classical Education is parsed, grade by grade, according to what the school, the administration, the teachers, the parents (and their Hillsdale College partners) consider to be appropriate material for each grade. Naked David, it was determined, was not appropriate for some and entirely appropriate for others. The sexually explicit Pompeian friezes may not be deemed appropriate for any grade in that school. All of that is fine.
And if we throw-in, on top, the ‘contractual’ obligation to communicate problematic material before its use, then that obligation was ignored…doubly ignored when the teacher, in question, told her class “Don’t tell your parents”.
The issue here is not censorship, because controlling what children have access to is a given. The issue is trust (between school, parent, and teacher); the issue is communication.
Interesting take. My impression of him was an odious ittle man determined to fight a culture war with everyone and allowed by at-will employment laws to do so against the teacher.
Yes, I too have understood better this well reported very weird incident. Thanks B Davis.
Interesting take. My impression of him was an odious ittle man determined to fight a culture war with everyone and allowed by at-will employment laws to do so against the teacher.
Yes, I too have understood better this well reported very weird incident. Thanks B Davis.
Not really.
But I say that recognizing that there are portions of the story we do not yet know (and may never know).
On the surface, certainly, it seems extreme for the Board (not the Governor) to ask for a resignation after 3 parents complained….but reading the subsequent interview with the Board’s chair would clearly indicate her forced resignation was in response to a series of incidents stretching across the whole school year. As Bishop himself says, the issue was not the nude David, it was her — presumably — consistent violation of school policy, re: building and maintaining parental trust via school/parent communication.
That — in and of itself — would indeed be grounds for termination, regardless of whether or not a naked David was involved in the most recent (& terminal) incident.
The point Bishop is making in the interview is a reasonable one: the charter school provides a Classical Education. That Classical Education is parsed, grade by grade, according to what the school, the administration, the teachers, the parents (and their Hillsdale College partners) consider to be appropriate material for each grade. Naked David, it was determined, was not appropriate for some and entirely appropriate for others. The sexually explicit Pompeian friezes may not be deemed appropriate for any grade in that school. All of that is fine.
And if we throw-in, on top, the ‘contractual’ obligation to communicate problematic material before its use, then that obligation was ignored…doubly ignored when the teacher, in question, told her class “Don’t tell your parents”.
The issue here is not censorship, because controlling what children have access to is a given. The issue is trust (between school, parent, and teacher); the issue is communication.
The linked article to the story about the headmaster and Michelangelo’s David is truly terrifying.
No matter how how that Governor or whatever he is tries to spin it, a headmaster was forced to resign because just 3 parents complained that they werenât given advanced warning that students were shown possibly the worlds most famous statue in a lesson about classics.
I agree thereâs no place or CRT and the like but this alternative is just as bad when those in charge canât explain what it is thatâs actually being taught. Like the woke they appear to be taking existing phrases and pretending they mean something else to avoid debating the subject at hand
Sounds like American prudism. On the men’s side, playing sports, nudity is normal for showers, baths etc. In Netherlands or Germany, we even encountered mixed showers where men and women went naked, or works saunas in Scandinavia. Hiking along European coastlines, you’ll regularly find naked people on the more secluded beaches being passed by people walking with children. Barcelona even has a nudist beach in the city. No-one bats an eyelid. It’s not sexualised. It’s the opposite of obsessing about looks and appearances. It’s just human.
This forum seems to be riddled with preposterous American prudes!
Will they ever grow up?
Ya wanna see me naked. PM me.
Have yer card ready! And pre-book your gurney in A +E for trauma.
More tea, vicar?
More tea, vicar?
Thereâs a difference between prudery and modesty. The latter is just plain politeness.
The worse your body looks the more polite you’re being! lol! I’m 73, overweight and very impolite!
Self praise is NO recommendation, Liam old chap.
Thank goodness! Much appreciated.
Self praise is NO recommendation, Liam old chap.
Thank goodness! Much appreciated.
Is Jane Baker above one of yours?
An American, you mean? Maybe. I don’t know all 350 million of us;)
Yes, the vulgarity rather gives her away I think, but perhaps she is Irish?
They also do rather well in that department, as Liam Mahony (of this Parish) has demonstrated on many occasions.
Yes, the vulgarity rather gives her away I think, but perhaps she is Irish?
They also do rather well in that department, as Liam Mahony (of this Parish) has demonstrated on many occasions.
An American, you mean? Maybe. I don’t know all 350 million of us;)
(Modesty).
Not a virtue normally associated with Americans, as I am sure you we will be the first to admit?
The worse your body looks the more polite you’re being! lol! I’m 73, overweight and very impolite!
Is Jane Baker above one of yours?
(Modesty).
Not a virtue normally associated with Americans, as I am sure you we will be the first to admit?
Ya wanna see me naked. PM me.
Have yer card ready! And pre-book your gurney in A +E for trauma.
Thereâs a difference between prudery and modesty. The latter is just plain politeness.
I’m not American, but I think part of the reason why I and other British people don’t like public nudity is that due to our social norms, public nudity tends to be exploited by actual perverts here, rather than practiced in perfectly innocent ways, so it is in the interests of our safety and that of our children to respond to it as a red flag.
There was a particular bit of beach near where I grew up where as fairly young teenagers, we’d come across nude men sunbathing. The amount of them who would openly masturbate in front of children was pretty creepy tbh. At the time, we of course would yell at them and call them pervs, but it’s only really as an adult that I started to see how sinister this behaviour actually was, for obviously underage 12 and 13 year old girls to have adult men not merely nude in front of us, but responding to awareness of our presence by starting to masturbate.
There’s also a nudist beach near to where I live now, and I personally wouldn’t go near it because of the numbers of men (and it is specifically men) using it to perform sex acts very publicly. I did grow up in a family that wasn’t particularly prudish about nudity, so I am not fussed by non-sexual nudity, but public nudity by and large doesn’t function in a healthy manner in our society.
I doubt that is an easily remedied problem, particularly with the changing demographics introducing more and more individuals from cultures that often see British women as little better than prostitutes.
“No sex please! We’re British” ..lol!
Yet Ireland BANNED:A Clockwork Orange (1971), and Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979) & others!
Typical of the Irish mentality is it not Liam old chap?
Typical of RC prudary and of the pridary displayed by our sycophantic censors! But our paganism broke though, more and more as time went on. Sure didn’t we ban Joyce, Becket and Kate O’brien, JP Dunleavy inter alia.. We’ve grown up considerably since then!
Yet another silly comment from Charlie.
Typical of RC prudary and of the pridary displayed by our sycophantic censors! But our paganism broke though, more and more as time went on. Sure didn’t we ban Joyce, Becket and Kate O’brien, JP Dunleavy inter alia.. We’ve grown up considerably since then!
Yet another silly comment from Charlie.
That’s a very silly comment.
Yet Ireland BANNED:A Clockwork Orange (1971), and Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979) & others!
Typical of the Irish mentality is it not Liam old chap?
That’s a very silly comment.
Nudist beaches are normally clearly marked, why were you on a nudist beach at 12?
I think you’re conflating two different things, more than a decade apart. The beach where I was walking at 12 is not a nudist beach at all, it was a normal, if fairly isolated beach several miles from where I lived then, that me and my friends would cycle to during the summer holidays.
The nudist beach I spoke about is a few miles from my present home, in a completely different area to where I lived as a teenager, and is a properly designated nudist beach.
There was a particular bit of beach near where I grew up where as fairly young teenagers, weâd come across nude men sunbathing. The amount of them
I’m confused as to why nobody reported it to the POLICE, if they weren’t on a nudist beach and that was a frequent occurance I’m pretty sure that is ILLEGAL. Especially with local girls cycling there throughout the holidays, were your parents that irresponsible? I thought you said your mother was obsessed with your education the other day, doesn’t sound like the kind of place that kind of mother would have let you frequently cycle to. Have you got a straight story?
My mother believed my education was important, but she was also a single mother who worked full time, it was pretty normal for children like myself and my friends to be essentially left to entertain ourselves when our parents were at work, and we’d frequently be out all day and come home at around half five to six when it was time for dinner.
That wasn’t some kind of neglect, that was the norm for children then, and as for why nobody phoned the police, well I imagine some who saw it may well have done or at least considered it, but this was before mobile phones and CCTV were common, so anyone making a call would have had a fair walk or cycle to the nearest phone box. By the time any authorities would have got there, the men would have been long gone, with no idea where they went.
I certainly didn’t tell my parents about things like that, and I doubt my friends would have either, simply because we had the bravado of youth, thinking we were invincible and could handle anything life threw at us, and probably not wanting to say anything to our parents that would make them restrict where we went or what we did. There were plenty of things we did that they probably wouldn’t have approved of, and so, it was just standard to give a fairly bland and minimal account of what you’d been doing for the day.
You are full of it aren’t you.
I don’t think it was normal in Britain in the 90s to go to a beach and come across that. Where are we talking?
I’ve done a lot of British beaches. Margate and Ramsgate, Birchington on sea, spent a lot of time around Rainham messing around by the medway estuary, dover, Newquay, Skegness, lyme regis way. Many in north Wales, Scotland. The nudist beach on shell island in north Wales has been there since we were kids, we went there every year. We still go now sometimes. Not to the nudist bit, to the normal bit. It has a campsite on it, for families. There has never as far as I know been any trouble like that. It gets very busy actually. Milking it again?
I’m starting to think that you have some kind of serious psychological and/or mental health issue going on, because this kind of paranoid fixation is not normal.
Why else would anyone fixate on a random commenter to this degree? You have stalked my comments for months, making completely unfounded accusations, often based on you not even reading my comments properly before launching into one of your weird passive aggressive interrogations.
I honestly feel rather sorry for you at this point, because the more you post to me, the clearer it is that there is something rather chaotic going on in your brain that is leading to your frankly rather disturbing behaviour.
I wish you well, and hope whatever is going on for you resolves itself so that you can devote your time and energy to something besides cyber stalking.
Precisely. B Emery is projecting, which says more about him than about you, Al Crowe.
Lmao.
Maybe you could devote your time and energy to something other than regaling us repeatedly with very long anecdotes about your personal life and your clothing preferences, I remember what I read, I pay to read here so I tend to read most days, is that not OK?
How about refuting my post.
Why are you trying to make out like British beaches are the kind of place people often come across that kind of behaviour?
That’s a pretty serious thing to come across.
I don’t think that’s really an accurate description of anything near to a common occurrence on a British beach. Especially frequently as you make out.
If you don’t want people to question what you are posting, don’t post.
âI donât think thatâs really an accurate description of anything near to a common occurrence on a British beach.ââŠâŠ.and your âevidenceâ is?
Exactly same as crowes, from my experience of visiting MANY beaches.
Seriously.
Exactly same as crowes, from my experience of visiting MANY beaches.
Seriously.
âI donât think thatâs really an accurate description of anything near to a common occurrence on a British beach.ââŠâŠ.and your âevidenceâ is?
Precisely. B Emery is projecting, which says more about him than about you, Al Crowe.
Lmao.
Maybe you could devote your time and energy to something other than regaling us repeatedly with very long anecdotes about your personal life and your clothing preferences, I remember what I read, I pay to read here so I tend to read most days, is that not OK?
How about refuting my post.
Why are you trying to make out like British beaches are the kind of place people often come across that kind of behaviour?
That’s a pretty serious thing to come across.
I don’t think that’s really an accurate description of anything near to a common occurrence on a British beach. Especially frequently as you make out.
If you don’t want people to question what you are posting, don’t post.
What is your point except to be nasty.
I’m starting to think that you have some kind of serious psychological and/or mental health issue going on, because this kind of paranoid fixation is not normal.
Why else would anyone fixate on a random commenter to this degree? You have stalked my comments for months, making completely unfounded accusations, often based on you not even reading my comments properly before launching into one of your weird passive aggressive interrogations.
I honestly feel rather sorry for you at this point, because the more you post to me, the clearer it is that there is something rather chaotic going on in your brain that is leading to your frankly rather disturbing behaviour.
I wish you well, and hope whatever is going on for you resolves itself so that you can devote your time and energy to something besides cyber stalking.
What is your point except to be nasty.
You are full of it aren’t you.
I don’t think it was normal in Britain in the 90s to go to a beach and come across that. Where are we talking?
I’ve done a lot of British beaches. Margate and Ramsgate, Birchington on sea, spent a lot of time around Rainham messing around by the medway estuary, dover, Newquay, Skegness, lyme regis way. Many in north Wales, Scotland. The nudist beach on shell island in north Wales has been there since we were kids, we went there every year. We still go now sometimes. Not to the nudist bit, to the normal bit. It has a campsite on it, for families. There has never as far as I know been any trouble like that. It gets very busy actually. Milking it again?
My mother believed my education was important, but she was also a single mother who worked full time, it was pretty normal for children like myself and my friends to be essentially left to entertain ourselves when our parents were at work, and we’d frequently be out all day and come home at around half five to six when it was time for dinner.
That wasn’t some kind of neglect, that was the norm for children then, and as for why nobody phoned the police, well I imagine some who saw it may well have done or at least considered it, but this was before mobile phones and CCTV were common, so anyone making a call would have had a fair walk or cycle to the nearest phone box. By the time any authorities would have got there, the men would have been long gone, with no idea where they went.
I certainly didn’t tell my parents about things like that, and I doubt my friends would have either, simply because we had the bravado of youth, thinking we were invincible and could handle anything life threw at us, and probably not wanting to say anything to our parents that would make them restrict where we went or what we did. There were plenty of things we did that they probably wouldn’t have approved of, and so, it was just standard to give a fairly bland and minimal account of what you’d been doing for the day.
There was a particular bit of beach near where I grew up where as fairly young teenagers, weâd come across nude men sunbathing. The amount of them
I’m confused as to why nobody reported it to the POLICE, if they weren’t on a nudist beach and that was a frequent occurance I’m pretty sure that is ILLEGAL. Especially with local girls cycling there throughout the holidays, were your parents that irresponsible? I thought you said your mother was obsessed with your education the other day, doesn’t sound like the kind of place that kind of mother would have let you frequently cycle to. Have you got a straight story?
I think you’re conflating two different things, more than a decade apart. The beach where I was walking at 12 is not a nudist beach at all, it was a normal, if fairly isolated beach several miles from where I lived then, that me and my friends would cycle to during the summer holidays.
The nudist beach I spoke about is a few miles from my present home, in a completely different area to where I lived as a teenager, and is a properly designated nudist beach.
Your comment would only make sense if there are a greater proportion of perverts in Britain compared to, say, Norway or Denmark. And I think the statistics show there isn’t any difference between countries.
Having looked briefly at the statistics, I can say that it is difficult to compare the rates of sexual abuse and predation by country, based on each country having a different legal definition of what constitutes such crimes.
Yet, if we look at the statistics that are available, the UK is recorded as suffering a higher rate of such crimes than either Norway or Denmark, with Denmark having a much lower recorded rate of rapes than the UK, and the UK is in the top ten countries in the entire world for sexual abuse of minors.
One startling statistic I have found based on one study is that one in 200 adults in the UK are paedophiles (although that is a statistic taken from a single study, it is certainly illustrative of the fear that leads to many here seeing public nudity as a red flag).
Whilst the issues with the limitations of the statistical comparisons, and the incompleteness of the data itself, it does seem to be fairly clear that we do have a bigger issue than Norway or Denmark with pervert.
Having looked briefly at the statistics, I can say that it is difficult to compare the rates of sexual abuse and predation by country, based on each country having a different legal definition of what constitutes such crimes.
Yet, if we look at the statistics that are available, the UK is recorded as suffering a higher rate of such crimes than either Norway or Denmark, with Denmark having a much lower recorded rate of rapes than the UK, and the UK is in the top ten countries in the entire world for sexual abuse of minors.
One startling statistic I have found based on one study is that one in 200 adults in the UK are paedophiles (although that is a statistic taken from a single study, it is certainly illustrative of the fear that leads to many here seeing public nudity as a red flag).
Whilst the issues with the limitations of the statistical comparisons, and the incompleteness of the data itself, it does seem to be fairly clear that we do have a bigger issue than Norway or Denmark with pervert.
“No sex please! We’re British” ..lol!
Nudist beaches are normally clearly marked, why were you on a nudist beach at 12?
Your comment would only make sense if there are a greater proportion of perverts in Britain compared to, say, Norway or Denmark. And I think the statistics show there isn’t any difference between countries.
Nope, not ever. I really don’t need to see anyone except my wife in the altogether. Public showers are cringe-worthy. The nudity isn’t even as bad as the hygiene. I have made it 52 years without ever using a public shower.
This forum seems to be riddled with preposterous American prudes!
Will they ever grow up?
I’m not American, but I think part of the reason why I and other British people don’t like public nudity is that due to our social norms, public nudity tends to be exploited by actual perverts here, rather than practiced in perfectly innocent ways, so it is in the interests of our safety and that of our children to respond to it as a red flag.
There was a particular bit of beach near where I grew up where as fairly young teenagers, we’d come across nude men sunbathing. The amount of them who would openly masturbate in front of children was pretty creepy tbh. At the time, we of course would yell at them and call them pervs, but it’s only really as an adult that I started to see how sinister this behaviour actually was, for obviously underage 12 and 13 year old girls to have adult men not merely nude in front of us, but responding to awareness of our presence by starting to masturbate.
There’s also a nudist beach near to where I live now, and I personally wouldn’t go near it because of the numbers of men (and it is specifically men) using it to perform sex acts very publicly. I did grow up in a family that wasn’t particularly prudish about nudity, so I am not fussed by non-sexual nudity, but public nudity by and large doesn’t function in a healthy manner in our society.
I doubt that is an easily remedied problem, particularly with the changing demographics introducing more and more individuals from cultures that often see British women as little better than prostitutes.
Nope, not ever. I really don’t need to see anyone except my wife in the altogether. Public showers are cringe-worthy. The nudity isn’t even as bad as the hygiene. I have made it 52 years without ever using a public shower.
Sounds like American prudism. On the men’s side, playing sports, nudity is normal for showers, baths etc. In Netherlands or Germany, we even encountered mixed showers where men and women went naked, or works saunas in Scandinavia. Hiking along European coastlines, you’ll regularly find naked people on the more secluded beaches being passed by people walking with children. Barcelona even has a nudist beach in the city. No-one bats an eyelid. It’s not sexualised. It’s the opposite of obsessing about looks and appearances. It’s just human.
Fantastic article! Non sexual nudity is very healthy. I spent years living in Europe and went to a sauna every now and then. While initially it was not easy, my first visit with my girlfriend at the time was an eye opener. Especially when another young woman came in and sat right above me providing a view that her gynecologist would be happy with. Neither women bat an eyelid. “When in Rome!”
Upon reflection, this attitude in the English speaking world is rather childish to begin with, but it is very hard to overcome. However, the latest attitudes from women that all men are sick perverts who need to rape women at every opportunity have done nothing but harm societies attitudes to many things including non sexual nudity. The important thing to remember here however is that it is only a very vocal minority of women who shout at the silent majority. With them are the predatory men who hope to impress these women by taking their side and shouting down the good men and reducing their competition.
Our very polarised society is seriously threatened. Here in Australia there is a show about to air about consent where according to the promo, men are bad and women are in need protection from men. Therefore women must tell men how to act and behave. As a man we are discouraged from helping raise the boys into young men. Men only spaces have all but disappeared, our communities are only valid for some and not others. Our society is broken.
So when you put all this together, we are deeply pathological. We have an unhealthy relationship to our bodies and the people around us. Our boarders have broken down to the point where we will all be aimless individuals herded along but the Ivory Tower. Maybe just maybe we all need to get naked and reset.
â However, the latest attitudes from women that all men are sick perverts who need to rape women at every opportunity have done nothing but harm societies attitudes to many things including non sexual nudity.â Evidence?
The easiest evidence is in the media. Here in Australia, we have an upcoming series about consent with a promo that is polarising. I know this can be dismissed as clickbait, however it is typical of a general attitude that has been building over decades.
Decades ago, women have been purposefully changing direction and going around where a male is. (Terrible evidence as it is anecdotal, but true and offensive)Young boys singled out at schools in assemblies for the mistreatment of women.Flip through some social media and you will find it, including men and women fighting back because they are so sick of it.I’m wrapping up here but this show on consent. A truly balanced approach from men and women should be part of the program and the promo. This is part of the problem which is reflecting in real life where some women are constantly negative towards males.
I am raising my daughter to understand that a male is her partner in life and when you work together, you can succeed. And before you flip out, she is straight and it is not a crime to say so. It stunned me when she kept on adding on but I may be bi (yet never once noticed a hot girl we drove or walked past but always saw the boys!)
100 % true.
The easiest evidence is in the media. Here in Australia, we have an upcoming series about consent with a promo that is polarising. I know this can be dismissed as clickbait, however it is typical of a general attitude that has been building over decades.
Decades ago, women have been purposefully changing direction and going around where a male is. (Terrible evidence as it is anecdotal, but true and offensive)Young boys singled out at schools in assemblies for the mistreatment of women.Flip through some social media and you will find it, including men and women fighting back because they are so sick of it.I’m wrapping up here but this show on consent. A truly balanced approach from men and women should be part of the program and the promo. This is part of the problem which is reflecting in real life where some women are constantly negative towards males.
I am raising my daughter to understand that a male is her partner in life and when you work together, you can succeed. And before you flip out, she is straight and it is not a crime to say so. It stunned me when she kept on adding on but I may be bi (yet never once noticed a hot girl we drove or walked past but always saw the boys!)
100 % true.
Boarders? Apart from that it would seem that when commenting about men its white men that commenters have in mind.
â However, the latest attitudes from women that all men are sick perverts who need to rape women at every opportunity have done nothing but harm societies attitudes to many things including non sexual nudity.â Evidence?
Boarders? Apart from that it would seem that when commenting about men its white men that commenters have in mind.
Fantastic article! Non sexual nudity is very healthy. I spent years living in Europe and went to a sauna every now and then. While initially it was not easy, my first visit with my girlfriend at the time was an eye opener. Especially when another young woman came in and sat right above me providing a view that her gynecologist would be happy with. Neither women bat an eyelid. “When in Rome!”
Upon reflection, this attitude in the English speaking world is rather childish to begin with, but it is very hard to overcome. However, the latest attitudes from women that all men are sick perverts who need to rape women at every opportunity have done nothing but harm societies attitudes to many things including non sexual nudity. The important thing to remember here however is that it is only a very vocal minority of women who shout at the silent majority. With them are the predatory men who hope to impress these women by taking their side and shouting down the good men and reducing their competition.
Our very polarised society is seriously threatened. Here in Australia there is a show about to air about consent where according to the promo, men are bad and women are in need protection from men. Therefore women must tell men how to act and behave. As a man we are discouraged from helping raise the boys into young men. Men only spaces have all but disappeared, our communities are only valid for some and not others. Our society is broken.
So when you put all this together, we are deeply pathological. We have an unhealthy relationship to our bodies and the people around us. Our boarders have broken down to the point where we will all be aimless individuals herded along but the Ivory Tower. Maybe just maybe we all need to get naked and reset.
Before stupid lockdown I used to go the the gym regularly (I am in my seventies).The other old guys like me were completely oblivious of our nudity in the locker rooms despite our sagging bits. It was the young guys who covered up, despite having much better bodies than us.
But having been a hospital doctor for over 40 years I have seen it all, and agree that, in general, public nudity should be discouraged on aesthetic grounds.
My mother’s precise response to seeing news coverage of the Brighton naked bike ride was that if she wanted to see saggy boobs and wrinkled buttocks, she could just stand in front of the mirror post shower.
My mother’s the liberated sort that would participate in a naked Brighton bike ride.
What for one person is liberating, is for another, something rather different. I find conservative clothing choices more liberating personally, but I am not exactly a social butterfly, so to me, freedom from other people’s attention tends to be more attractive than freedom to have people stare at my naked body.
‘ I did grow up in a family that wasnât particularly prudish about nudity, so I am not fussed by non-sexual nudity, but public nudity by and large doesnât function in a healthy manner in our society.’
‘but I think part of the reason why I and other British people donât like public nudity is that due to our social norms,’
is what you said.
So, you are not prudish, not fussed about non sexual nudity, so you are kind saying you are a libertarian. But then you say you prefer conservative clothing and insinuate that everyone that perhaps just likes a bit of breeze and sunshine is somehow a crazy attention seeker. Some people like the breeze and sunshine, some people like to swim starkers. You’re a bit all over the place on the issue aren’t you?
You also speak for the whole of British society and our ‘social norms’ and you seem very confused, I don’t want everyone thinking us British are as confused as you are.
I was kind of f*cking with you, my mum probably wouldn’t do the bike ride.
Introverts versus extroverts.
‘ I did grow up in a family that wasnât particularly prudish about nudity, so I am not fussed by non-sexual nudity, but public nudity by and large doesnât function in a healthy manner in our society.’
‘but I think part of the reason why I and other British people donât like public nudity is that due to our social norms,’
is what you said.
So, you are not prudish, not fussed about non sexual nudity, so you are kind saying you are a libertarian. But then you say you prefer conservative clothing and insinuate that everyone that perhaps just likes a bit of breeze and sunshine is somehow a crazy attention seeker. Some people like the breeze and sunshine, some people like to swim starkers. You’re a bit all over the place on the issue aren’t you?
You also speak for the whole of British society and our ‘social norms’ and you seem very confused, I don’t want everyone thinking us British are as confused as you are.
I was kind of f*cking with you, my mum probably wouldn’t do the bike ride.
Introverts versus extroverts.
But what would be the point except exhibitionism and bravado.
What for one person is liberating, is for another, something rather different. I find conservative clothing choices more liberating personally, but I am not exactly a social butterfly, so to me, freedom from other people’s attention tends to be more attractive than freedom to have people stare at my naked body.
But what would be the point except exhibitionism and bravado.
Oh Brighton, so we know what that was all about.
My mother’s the liberated sort that would participate in a naked Brighton bike ride.
Oh Brighton, so we know what that was all about.
Well said. I remember the horror that I experienced as a child when my full figured grandmother pulled off her pants in a split second after spilling hot turkey fat onto herself. I was never the same.
Yes, same here. Public school in the late 60s and 70s in Southern California and showering after gym class totally nude and no one thought a thing about it. Now I go to the gym and the young guys are all struggling to pull them up and down while keeping their bits fully covered. It just seems so strange to me. Staying covered up in the sauna especially and painfully strange. I’ve just assumed it’s a lack of confidence in their sexuality and a fear of being ogled by wandering eyes of homosexual predators, but I don’t really know. At my age, I just can’t be bothered about all that nonsense. I completely agree with the comments of how this culture is distorting the meaning and perception of the human body. If the body and its sexual functions are distorted by porn with no normal human inputs, then God help these poor folks, and all of us who are or will become their victims.
That was still normal in England in the 80s and 90s.
I again suspect that there’s a gender difference in play, because as a woman born in the early 80s, whilst young girls could get away with actual public nudity, in public swimming pools, even in my earliest memories, it was rare to come across an adult female, or even a teenaged female, who would be fully naked around other women.
It’s certainly intensified, but I’d suggest that it began all the way back then in women’s changing rooms, and gradually spread to boys over time.
I again suspect that there’s a gender difference in play, because as a woman born in the early 80s, whilst young girls could get away with actual public nudity, in public swimming pools, even in my earliest memories, it was rare to come across an adult female, or even a teenaged female, who would be fully naked around other women.
It’s certainly intensified, but I’d suggest that it began all the way back then in women’s changing rooms, and gradually spread to boys over time.
That was still normal in England in the 80s and 90s.
When I was a boy in the 80s and 90s it was normal for most people to walk around naked in the swimming pool changing rooms, regardless of age (of the same sex obviously). But now about 90% of people usually put a towel round themselves when walking around between the lockers and the showers. The 10% who still walk around naked are mostly the older ones. (This was/is the English Midlands).
I remember the post PE classes nudity we had to endure in the changing rooms. PE teacher stood in the room to ensure we all went in the shower, I was told it was so they could check bodies for signs of child abuse (bruises, cig burns etc).
As an adult, Iâm happy to stay largely covered up, public nudity should be saved for artistic integrity, those with a bod like Michelangeloâs David can carry on, those with a body like Sam Smith (including Sam Smith) should spare the rest of us having to witness the spectacle.
Checking your bodies for signs of child abuse sounds very innapropriate, opportunistic, and predatory.
Checking your bodies for signs of child abuse sounds very innapropriate, opportunistic, and predatory.
Perhaps the young men feared the old guys might be pedaphiles.
My mother’s precise response to seeing news coverage of the Brighton naked bike ride was that if she wanted to see saggy boobs and wrinkled buttocks, she could just stand in front of the mirror post shower.
Well said. I remember the horror that I experienced as a child when my full figured grandmother pulled off her pants in a split second after spilling hot turkey fat onto herself. I was never the same.
Yes, same here. Public school in the late 60s and 70s in Southern California and showering after gym class totally nude and no one thought a thing about it. Now I go to the gym and the young guys are all struggling to pull them up and down while keeping their bits fully covered. It just seems so strange to me. Staying covered up in the sauna especially and painfully strange. I’ve just assumed it’s a lack of confidence in their sexuality and a fear of being ogled by wandering eyes of homosexual predators, but I don’t really know. At my age, I just can’t be bothered about all that nonsense. I completely agree with the comments of how this culture is distorting the meaning and perception of the human body. If the body and its sexual functions are distorted by porn with no normal human inputs, then God help these poor folks, and all of us who are or will become their victims.
When I was a boy in the 80s and 90s it was normal for most people to walk around naked in the swimming pool changing rooms, regardless of age (of the same sex obviously). But now about 90% of people usually put a towel round themselves when walking around between the lockers and the showers. The 10% who still walk around naked are mostly the older ones. (This was/is the English Midlands).
I remember the post PE classes nudity we had to endure in the changing rooms. PE teacher stood in the room to ensure we all went in the shower, I was told it was so they could check bodies for signs of child abuse (bruises, cig burns etc).
As an adult, Iâm happy to stay largely covered up, public nudity should be saved for artistic integrity, those with a bod like Michelangeloâs David can carry on, those with a body like Sam Smith (including Sam Smith) should spare the rest of us having to witness the spectacle.
Perhaps the young men feared the old guys might be pedaphiles.
Before stupid lockdown I used to go the the gym regularly (I am in my seventies).The other old guys like me were completely oblivious of our nudity in the locker rooms despite our sagging bits. It was the young guys who covered up, despite having much better bodies than us.
But having been a hospital doctor for over 40 years I have seen it all, and agree that, in general, public nudity should be discouraged on aesthetic grounds.
Itâs an interesting one, isnât it? On a philosophical level, I do draw a sharp distinction between sexualised and non sexualised nudity, but the idea of nudity in a public place has always struck me as weird and uncomfortable, sexualised or not, and I donât really feel any great desire to overcome this inclination. Public nudity is often a good signifier of someone being either âa lad having a laughâ or a hippy, and while neither may necessarily be a pervert, I still donât want to be around them.
Probably the weather is a factor? Maybe also room temperatures being a bit low! I’ve noticed I’m fascinated at the sight of naked women at a nudist beach ..for about 5 minutes. Then it seems so normal that a dressed woman looks strange!
apple mac or flasher mac?
apple mac or flasher mac?
I’m far from being a prude but I’ve always thought it wierd that men urinate side beside with men they don’t know.
Probably the weather is a factor? Maybe also room temperatures being a bit low! I’ve noticed I’m fascinated at the sight of naked women at a nudist beach ..for about 5 minutes. Then it seems so normal that a dressed woman looks strange!
I’m far from being a prude but I’ve always thought it wierd that men urinate side beside with men they don’t know.
Itâs an interesting one, isnât it? On a philosophical level, I do draw a sharp distinction between sexualised and non sexualised nudity, but the idea of nudity in a public place has always struck me as weird and uncomfortable, sexualised or not, and I donât really feel any great desire to overcome this inclination. Public nudity is often a good signifier of someone being either âa lad having a laughâ or a hippy, and while neither may necessarily be a pervert, I still donât want to be around them.
Man, I really don’t want to see 98% of the human race naked. There’s just no reason. In my mind, no one except my wife ever needs to see me naked. Most nudity is just cringe-worthy.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Beauty is in the emotions of the beholder.
Beauty is in the emotions of the beholder.
Nudity can be hilarious though, streakers for instance. Good clean fun!
But why is it always men who streak?
Women run nude in as well and also bike nude in the World Naked Bike Rides. They also streaked a lot too.
Women run nude in as well and also bike nude in the World Naked Bike Rides. They also streaked a lot too.
Yes it is none of those who have done it have regrets.
But why is it always men who streak?
Yes it is none of those who have done it have regrets.
In many human societies it’s normal for both sexes to be nude except for the genital area. Toplessness in both males and females is regarded as nothing out of the ordinary. The female breasts are not a naturally sexual part of the body.
Is this true? Perhaps it is.
Not originally, but somehow it became so. I don’t know the history of why and when, probably Catholicism.
Is this true? Perhaps it is.
Not originally, but somehow it became so. I don’t know the history of why and when, probably Catholicism.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Nudity can be hilarious though, streakers for instance. Good clean fun!
In many human societies it’s normal for both sexes to be nude except for the genital area. Toplessness in both males and females is regarded as nothing out of the ordinary. The female breasts are not a naturally sexual part of the body.
Man, I really don’t want to see 98% of the human race naked. There’s just no reason. In my mind, no one except my wife ever needs to see me naked. Most nudity is just cringe-worthy.
I keep my trousers on at all times, to avoid frightening the horses.
Making them jealous
Have you got a big one?
A big horse, I mean.
It’s okay to take ’em off at home ..once in a while. QV1 was only concerned with doing it in the streets!
Funny!
Making them jealous
Have you got a big one?
A big horse, I mean.
It’s okay to take ’em off at home ..once in a while. QV1 was only concerned with doing it in the streets!
Funny!
I keep my trousers on at all times, to avoid frightening the horses.
And to think that once all the great Pan Hellenic Games, including the Olympic were performed stark naked! Or gymnos to use the contemporary word.
Given the todayâs propensity for gluttony, and the resultant epidemic of obesity one could hardly imagine a more revolting sight.
ÎÎżÏÎżÎșÏΌα! ÎÎč οΞÏΜΔÏ!
It was said that in the first Olympiad they were clothed, and a WOMAN won the foot race!
Hence the imposition of nudity for all future games!
It was said that in the first Olympiad they were clothed, and a WOMAN won the foot race!
Hence the imposition of nudity for all future games!
No ladies allowed though Charlie! Big difference! ..or else the swimming would have been impossibly slow!
Games of Hera an all female event.
One woman only present at the Olympic Games.
Swimming was NOT an event.
More research needed Liam old chap.
Games of Hera an all female event.
One woman only present at the Olympic Games.
Swimming was NOT an event.
More research needed Liam old chap.
To be fair, I don’t think many of the Olympic athletes are morbidly obese these days either.
Athletes aren’t obese.
ÎÎżÏÎżÎșÏΌα! ÎÎč οΞÏΜΔÏ!
No ladies allowed though Charlie! Big difference! ..or else the swimming would have been impossibly slow!
To be fair, I don’t think many of the Olympic athletes are morbidly obese these days either.
Athletes aren’t obese.
And to think that once all the great Pan Hellenic Games, including the Olympic were performed stark naked! Or gymnos to use the contemporary word.
Given the todayâs propensity for gluttony, and the resultant epidemic of obesity one could hardly imagine a more revolting sight.
I’m not a naturist per se, but have always thought swimming costumes the most ludicrous garments ever invented. For some reason they take ages to dry, so you have a clammy piece of material round your middle when trying to warm up in the sun after swimming; women have two such clammy bits of material! Swimming naked just seems more natural as well as sensible.
And very sensual.
My wife and I are nudist and we always swim nude.
My wife and I are nudist and we always swim nude.
And very sensual.
I’m not a naturist per se, but have always thought swimming costumes the most ludicrous garments ever invented. For some reason they take ages to dry, so you have a clammy piece of material round your middle when trying to warm up in the sun after swimming; women have two such clammy bits of material! Swimming naked just seems more natural as well as sensible.
Ms. Rosenfield, as a high-school male in the late 70âs in rural North Carolina (USA), I can attest that full nudity in the locker room was the norm. Showers were used for their intended purposes. Shy boys were occasionally mocked, as were those whose pubescence lagged. Pity the boy who hadnât yet grown pubic hair. Bodies were on display, whether short, tall, fat, or skinny.
Overall, however, little was made of it. Those of us whose parents had taught that nudity was bad were leery at first, but most soon accepted the locker room as part of everyday school life, even if an unpleasant one. It was, in a way, part of the male ritual, a means of equalization in the things of being male.
Yet, there was nothing at all sexual about it, at least in the moment. Perhaps there were gays among us who found this nudity titillating, but we never knew it. Perhaps some boys developed permanent psychological damage from the physiological comparative analysis that might have gone on, but it didnât present at the time. Or, maybe some deep and ever-present childhood scars from those locker room exposures are why some parents of the current age so loathe their childrenâs exposure to nudity.
All that said, I agree that somehow, somewhere along the way, nudity got a bad wrap. As an adult, Iâve been to several nude resorts and have often wondered why the majority of the attendees were both over 50 and overweight. Leftovers of the hippee culture? Or, maybe theyâve just learned how to be freer than the folks who spend two hours a day in the gym and eat salads and drink protein shakes. Maybe its too much time in front of the mirror (or the selfie stick) or too much focus on Kardashian-esque bodies. Maybe the thought of a creepy old fat naked guy leering at them keeps younger folks away from even controlled public nudity. Either way, nudity is âa thingâ here.
Itâs a shame, because there is something freeing, something enabling, about being nude. Maybe we should try to learn something from those who bare the least attractive bodies.
“Showers were used for their intended purposes.”
Bumming?
I’m thinking of making billions out of a new lottery idea?… Winner gets half an hour in the post game showers with the England female soccer team…
“Showers were used for their intended purposes.”
Bumming?
I’m thinking of making billions out of a new lottery idea?… Winner gets half an hour in the post game showers with the England female soccer team…
Ms. Rosenfield, as a high-school male in the late 70âs in rural North Carolina (USA), I can attest that full nudity in the locker room was the norm. Showers were used for their intended purposes. Shy boys were occasionally mocked, as were those whose pubescence lagged. Pity the boy who hadnât yet grown pubic hair. Bodies were on display, whether short, tall, fat, or skinny.
Overall, however, little was made of it. Those of us whose parents had taught that nudity was bad were leery at first, but most soon accepted the locker room as part of everyday school life, even if an unpleasant one. It was, in a way, part of the male ritual, a means of equalization in the things of being male.
Yet, there was nothing at all sexual about it, at least in the moment. Perhaps there were gays among us who found this nudity titillating, but we never knew it. Perhaps some boys developed permanent psychological damage from the physiological comparative analysis that might have gone on, but it didnât present at the time. Or, maybe some deep and ever-present childhood scars from those locker room exposures are why some parents of the current age so loathe their childrenâs exposure to nudity.
All that said, I agree that somehow, somewhere along the way, nudity got a bad wrap. As an adult, Iâve been to several nude resorts and have often wondered why the majority of the attendees were both over 50 and overweight. Leftovers of the hippee culture? Or, maybe theyâve just learned how to be freer than the folks who spend two hours a day in the gym and eat salads and drink protein shakes. Maybe its too much time in front of the mirror (or the selfie stick) or too much focus on Kardashian-esque bodies. Maybe the thought of a creepy old fat naked guy leering at them keeps younger folks away from even controlled public nudity. Either way, nudity is âa thingâ here.
Itâs a shame, because there is something freeing, something enabling, about being nude. Maybe we should try to learn something from those who bare the least attractive bodies.
Kat’s account of teenage girls in a locker room is just weird to me. I was in high school in the late 80’s and I can assure you that the guys all took showers after gym class. To women here who grew up in that time period, is Kat’s account accurate for British schoolgirls in the 90’s?
Tell me about it!
I can still feel the sting of the towel flicks (in the 70s).
No idea what the girls did.
I grew up in the 2010âs and the boys at my school used the locker rooms in the exact way she described. This one guy dropped his towel once deliberately and everyone thought he was a freak for it.
Late 70s to mid 80s UK boys school. No cubicles & communal showers. Initially exquisitely embarrassing (-like for 2 PE lessons), then I don’t think anyone gave a toss for the next 7 years. Towels/no towels (towel flicks? Oh yes) swimming trunks/no trunks.
Communal shrugging of shoulders as to what we all looked like (but “behave,” & no bloody erections).
At least nobody gave a toss. That’s when things get out of hand. Sorry matron
Brilliant!
Brilliant!
At least nobody gave a toss. That’s when things get out of hand. Sorry matron
Late 70s to mid 80s UK boys school. No cubicles & communal showers. Initially exquisitely embarrassing (-like for 2 PE lessons), then I don’t think anyone gave a toss for the next 7 years. Towels/no towels (towel flicks? Oh yes) swimming trunks/no trunks.
Communal shrugging of shoulders as to what we all looked like (but “behave,” & no bloody erections).
I attended secondary school in the Uk in the 1990s, and I can confirm this is an accurate account of girl’s changing room etiquette here. In fact, if you took both your top off and your bottoms off at the same time, and displayed all your underwear, you’d be told off by other girls, and if you dared even glance in the vague direction of someone else, you’d be angrily accused of being a lesbian.
All rather laughable considering the PE teacher who was lurking in there was not only a very obvious lesbian, but about a year or two after I left school lost her job for having a relationship with a girl at the school.
It all seems rather silly now, but I clearly remember that even when you took off your top, you had to face the wall, so people saw nothing of your bra besides the back of it.
Funny how times change.
Girls are now queuing up to announce theyâre bisexual or lesbians.
To be honest, they’re more interested in claiming to be non-binary than bisexual or a lesbian, because being gender non-conforming or trans gets the most social credits, being a lesbian or bisexual is barely worth anyone batting an eyelid in their generation.
So true.
To be honest, they’re more interested in claiming to be non-binary than bisexual or a lesbian, because being gender non-conforming or trans gets the most social credits, being a lesbian or bisexual is barely worth anyone batting an eyelid in their generation.
So true.
Weird, I went to secondary school in the 2000s, we weren’t that strange about it, it was all about having a bra from La senza that was trendy, not an m and s ‘granny bra’. If you had a granny bra we joked about it and our awful mothers for insisting on m and s.
Best guess I can make is that you lucked out in some way or other. I was an unpopular girl at a school rough enough that a particularly nasty bullying incident led to it making national news. So I probably experienced the sharper end of the stick than most, but every girl seemed pretty similar in how they hid their bodies.
Ive been all over. Done every version of education, state, private, home ed. Up and down, I love it, my life is rarely dull.
I can confirm this is an accurate account of girlâs changing room etiquette here
Is what you said, that does not reflect my experience really in either state or private education. Sure there’s always a bit of nastiness with girls, the odd lesbian accusation but you are really milking it.
All rather laughable
It all seems rather silly now,
Didn’t sound from that like you were talking about being bullied, sorry.
I have been once again entirely truthful as to what was accurate for what I and my peers experienced. If that’s not what you experienced, then it’s not what you experienced, that doesn’t invalidate my experiences or indicate that yours are any more accurate.
The fixation you have on interrogating me about every comment I make is frankly rather weird though. I have no idea who you are, but I really wish you’d put that time and energy into something more productive.
It’s kind of the point to have a discussion, there’s not actually many women on here that are below 35.
So the scope of people that can discuss girly changing room etiquette in the 90s/2000s is pretty narrow as far as I can make out anyway.
So looks like it’s just me and you!
Any other women in this band want to weigh in, feel free.
I was just saying that was not MY experience. Is that OK? Dont flatter yourself, I’m not stalking you, just having a discussion. If your not up to it just say I’ll be sure to leave you alone forever more.
It’s kind of the point to have a discussion, there’s not actually many women on here that are below 35.
So the scope of people that can discuss girly changing room etiquette in the 90s/2000s is pretty narrow as far as I can make out anyway.
So looks like it’s just me and you!
Any other women in this band want to weigh in, feel free.
I was just saying that was not MY experience. Is that OK? Dont flatter yourself, I’m not stalking you, just having a discussion. If your not up to it just say I’ll be sure to leave you alone forever more.
I have been once again entirely truthful as to what was accurate for what I and my peers experienced. If that’s not what you experienced, then it’s not what you experienced, that doesn’t invalidate my experiences or indicate that yours are any more accurate.
The fixation you have on interrogating me about every comment I make is frankly rather weird though. I have no idea who you are, but I really wish you’d put that time and energy into something more productive.
Ive been all over. Done every version of education, state, private, home ed. Up and down, I love it, my life is rarely dull.
I can confirm this is an accurate account of girlâs changing room etiquette here
Is what you said, that does not reflect my experience really in either state or private education. Sure there’s always a bit of nastiness with girls, the odd lesbian accusation but you are really milking it.
All rather laughable
It all seems rather silly now,
Didn’t sound from that like you were talking about being bullied, sorry.
Best guess I can make is that you lucked out in some way or other. I was an unpopular girl at a school rough enough that a particularly nasty bullying incident led to it making national news. So I probably experienced the sharper end of the stick than most, but every girl seemed pretty similar in how they hid their bodies.
Funny how times change.
Girls are now queuing up to announce theyâre bisexual or lesbians.
Weird, I went to secondary school in the 2000s, we weren’t that strange about it, it was all about having a bra from La senza that was trendy, not an m and s ‘granny bra’. If you had a granny bra we joked about it and our awful mothers for insisting on m and s.
American public school in the 70âs, exact same behavior. The towels they gave out would not have allowed anyone to actually dry themselves which may have been a factor. Even when I transferred to a private all girls school with individual showers and dressing spaces no one showered. Our gym uniforms were adorable pleated jumpers though, so we just pulled them over our school blouses if wearing short sleeves.
She’s an American born in ’82. I, also American, was born in ’88 and had an identical experience changing in the locker rooms after P.E.
It wasn’t until I joined the Navy in bootcamp I had to shower in a community setting.
There was a difference at different ages, when very young none of the girls cared, when we started puberty there was a shyness and even embarrassment at the changes to our bodies, so we tended to hide then; later we went back to not caring too much. Also we couldn’t avoid the shower, the gym mistress ensured that all went through the (usually cold) shower. This was all in the 60s though, so much earlier.
All of us boys took showers after PE.
We certainly didnât have individual showers or curtains, just one big group wash area.
Nobody thought anything of it.
Not sure, but in the 60s at an all girls grammar schoo, after sport we all showered together in a long shower like a tunnel just walked through got wet, applied soap, rinsed and carried on through very quick and I do not remember any embarrassment. Grew up in an unembarrassed non sexual naked family, with brother, so maybe that helped?
Lucky you!!
Lucky you!!
Schoolgirls in the fifties, no changing clothes and no showers available. Sports were not taken seriously for girls at least in my private school.
Tell me about it!
I can still feel the sting of the towel flicks (in the 70s).
No idea what the girls did.
I grew up in the 2010âs and the boys at my school used the locker rooms in the exact way she described. This one guy dropped his towel once deliberately and everyone thought he was a freak for it.
I attended secondary school in the Uk in the 1990s, and I can confirm this is an accurate account of girl’s changing room etiquette here. In fact, if you took both your top off and your bottoms off at the same time, and displayed all your underwear, you’d be told off by other girls, and if you dared even glance in the vague direction of someone else, you’d be angrily accused of being a lesbian.
All rather laughable considering the PE teacher who was lurking in there was not only a very obvious lesbian, but about a year or two after I left school lost her job for having a relationship with a girl at the school.
It all seems rather silly now, but I clearly remember that even when you took off your top, you had to face the wall, so people saw nothing of your bra besides the back of it.
American public school in the 70âs, exact same behavior. The towels they gave out would not have allowed anyone to actually dry themselves which may have been a factor. Even when I transferred to a private all girls school with individual showers and dressing spaces no one showered. Our gym uniforms were adorable pleated jumpers though, so we just pulled them over our school blouses if wearing short sleeves.