Freud didnât really understand women. This is not an original point: it was first made by Freud himself. According to his biographer Ernest Jones, Freud admitted: âThe great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my thirty years of research into the feminine soul, is âWhat does a woman want?ââ
Nonetheless, he had a go at making sense of us â and especially how we mature. Male children are, he thought, animated by an infantile desire to possess their mother and destroy their father: the Oedipus complex. But things are different for girls, who must first get over their resentment at their mother for having birthed them without a penis. Only having done this, Freud thought, would women come to identify with their mothers and embrace female gender roles. Though Freud never used the term, Jung dubbed it the âElectra complexâ, and it stuck.
Freudâs convoluted attempts to make sense of women have been largely discarded by modern psychology. But the âElectra complexâ does capture something important and true: relationships between mothers and daughters can be both intensely close and also, at the same time, bitterly ambivalent.
Lighter fuel was poured on this cauldron of woes last week, in an article celebrating three older women hell-bent on smashing every grandmotherly stereotype out there. Thereâs no need, we gather, for a grandmother to sit about âpatting her blue rinse while knitting quietly in a cornerâ as former Page 3 girl Jilly Johnson puts it, or âunder pressure to tone down our behaviour and stay in the kitchenâ, as journalist Jane Gordon scornfully suggests.
Instead, grandmothers are taking a leaf from Demi Mooreâs book and embracing their âhot kooky unhinged grandma eraâ. In this vision, the role of grandma is to be âunconventionalâ: challenging authority, flouting routines, giving your grandkids inappropriate things for breakfast, and doing âcrazy thingsâ with them. It left me wondering what their adult daughters make of âfun, crazy âGlammyââ and âBubbie Bonkersâ?
Perhaps it doesnât matter. The women featured are an actress, a journalist and a model: hardly representative of everyday life. Surely most grandmas arenât like this? Except that boomer-age âGlammiesâ abound in real life too. The American conservative writer Helen Roy grumbled recently that âboomer grandparentismâ means liberally dispensing parenting advice, while withholding all practical help and insisting on being called anything but âGrandmaâ.
The response resembled an intergenerational online bloodbath, which rather suggests the topic is something of a sore point. And nor is anecdotal evidence of âGlammiesâ difficult to find. Emma, 31, a London-based mother to one toddler, reports that her mother-in-law claimed to be âtoo busyâ to travel 90 minutes to see her first grandchild â all the while training for her first marathon.
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SubscribeInfinite agency.
Zero responsibility.
Feminism in four words.
Gee. My feminism entailed helping women in fear for their lives after years of beating escape from their abusers w/o abandoning their children, or helping women just brutally raped. Around 3k women each year in the US are murdered by their male partners–the handful of males murdered by female partners typically have a bunch of felony batteries and TROs in their wake.
Male violence against women=male entitlement in four words.
Male violence against women could be anything. If a woman is killing a man’s child and he pushes her away, that is male violence towards the woman. Is it entitlement?
However tragic it may be that 3k women die of domestic violence every year, it is statistically tiny.
The fact that such idiotic comment gets ‘6’ upticks here is pretty depressing.
And yet the most violent of relationships isn’t male/female nor even male/male but female/female; that’s right, lesbians have the worst record for domestic violence. It’s because you’ve paired together 2 of the same sex where most likely both are feminists which means as a woman they are never wrong but teh problem is that their partner is also a woman and so they can’t both be never wrong. In a Male/Female relationship the majority of men put up with this b/c men can’t hit a woman without consequences but 2 women certainly can go at each other.
Your experience is just that “Your” experience and not necessarily reflective of most of what happens or is.
This was quite an interesting factoid.
Two women can’t share a kitchen
Two women can’t share a kitchen
This was quite an interesting factoid.
I resent the implication all men batter their wives, demonstrably false.
She didn’t imply that at all, so your “resentment” is misplaced.
These feminists would of course oppose any efforts to name and shame minority communities that have far higher crime rates against women.
What is also ironic is that those who claim women are helpless, weak victims of men (ignoring male victims because they don’t matter) are also precisely the same demographic that demand equal pay for female footballers, allowing women in the army or liberally adding female superheroes or action stars in movies. Because girl power, women are as strong as men, etc.
I read a term somewhere, maybe here or YouTube – Schrödinger’s feminism. Women can be both helpless victims or strooong, until you open the box and figure out what’s more convenient.
She didn’t imply that at all, so your “resentment” is misplaced.
These feminists would of course oppose any efforts to name and shame minority communities that have far higher crime rates against women.
What is also ironic is that those who claim women are helpless, weak victims of men (ignoring male victims because they don’t matter) are also precisely the same demographic that demand equal pay for female footballers, allowing women in the army or liberally adding female superheroes or action stars in movies. Because girl power, women are as strong as men, etc.
I read a term somewhere, maybe here or YouTube – Schrödinger’s feminism. Women can be both helpless victims or strooong, until you open the box and figure out what’s more convenient.
Male violence against women.
They really ought to pass a law against that.
I mean, men shouldn’t be entitled to do that, should they?
We are a country of 330 millionâŠabout half of those are men. Not excusing it but it isnât common place in everyday life here.
The fact that feminists couldn’t care less about male victims of domestic violence (about 1/3rd of the total, zero resources or help), or the mostly male victims of workplace accidents, homelessness or suicides, just underlines his point.
Plenty of men officially (as police, lawmakers or simply good samaritans) step on to help females.
Feminists on the other hand?
Always victims, no responsibility, introspection or accountability.
Samir. Every feminism discussion you have a meltdown about feminists destroying everything.
Every thread I go after you, you wimp out.
Sorry to piss on your bonfire AGAIN (sorry I know you don’t like womens ‘violent verbal politics’ was it last time?) but once again. I ask you. Where are your sources for your woman hating tropes?
I think we know Samir’s “sources”- a lifetime of repeated rejection. Which is sad, but not a reasonable basis for a philosophy.
Yeah bless him, he posts like one who has much to learn. I keep scaring him off too.
I’ll keep roasting him. He needs to come out and slap down my verbal politics, I was hoping for at least a vain attempt, a bit of sport. Come on Samir, I’ve got loads of verbal politics. They used to say at home I never know when to shut up. Right of coarse. But it doesn’t stop me from carrying on.
Cheers to you and John for pushing against a persistent, predictable tide on this comment board! I hope your informed, contra-lunatic-ranting stance reflects the views of more readers than screens would indicate. In any case, your pushback is welcome. Keep calm and carry on then.
I’m intrigued as to why this site- which has consistently interesting and varied articles- attracts such a relentlessly nutty right-wing sort of commenter, way outside the normal range of opinions one meets in life, thank God.
I suppose it’s all down to the dreaded ‘algorithms’, which are used to seek out the dispossesed, the angry and fringe conspiracy theorists, and in this case, the poor, delicate chaps who think the world went to pot the day women were given the vote, or the Witchfinder General lost his day-job. I have to remind myself that this isn’t the norm, it’s a strange collection of self-selecting individuals and just one of the odd manifestations of online demographics, even though they like to think of themselves- as such extremely vocal types invariably do- as the ‘silent majority’.
You and me both! Every time I read an excellent article on here my feeling of satisfaction immediately plummets when I see the retrograde comments. If only the audience lived up to the content.
Let’s stick together!
I agree with you and Kirsten. Periodically I have to take a break from reading the comments. It isn’t that I mind if they are right or left-wing but that the commenters from the right seem to se their opinions as facts.
Exactly. Well said. Only saw this about a week after your post but yes I was hoping to liberate (liberalize?) that “silent majority” saying from its Nixonian origins.
One hypothesis: This website lets a lot of comments through, and far-right commenters may not encounter that liberty on relatively mainstream–i.e., not insistently-wackadoodle–websites, especially for rat-a-tat back-and-forth exchanges [?].
Not to brag but I’m leading the downvotes right now.
You and me both! Every time I read an excellent article on here my feeling of satisfaction immediately plummets when I see the retrograde comments. If only the audience lived up to the content.
Let’s stick together!
I agree with you and Kirsten. Periodically I have to take a break from reading the comments. It isn’t that I mind if they are right or left-wing but that the commenters from the right seem to se their opinions as facts.
Exactly. Well said. Only saw this about a week after your post but yes I was hoping to liberate (liberalize?) that “silent majority” saying from its Nixonian origins.
One hypothesis: This website lets a lot of comments through, and far-right commenters may not encounter that liberty on relatively mainstream–i.e., not insistently-wackadoodle–websites, especially for rat-a-tat back-and-forth exchanges [?].
Not to brag but I’m leading the downvotes right now.
Thank you! Lol minus three votes. The lunatics are strong on this platform..
I’m intrigued as to why this site- which has consistently interesting and varied articles- attracts such a relentlessly nutty right-wing sort of commenter, way outside the normal range of opinions one meets in life, thank God.
I suppose it’s all down to the dreaded ‘algorithms’, which are used to seek out the dispossesed, the angry and fringe conspiracy theorists, and in this case, the poor, delicate chaps who think the world went to pot the day women were given the vote, or the Witchfinder General lost his day-job. I have to remind myself that this isn’t the norm, it’s a strange collection of self-selecting individuals and just one of the odd manifestations of online demographics, even though they like to think of themselves- as such extremely vocal types invariably do- as the ‘silent majority’.
Thank you! Lol minus three votes. The lunatics are strong on this platform..
Cheers to you and John for pushing against a persistent, predictable tide on this comment board! I hope your informed, contra-lunatic-ranting stance reflects the views of more readers than screens would indicate. In any case, your pushback is welcome. Keep calm and carry on then.
Yeah bless him, he posts like one who has much to learn. I keep scaring him off too.
I’ll keep roasting him. He needs to come out and slap down my verbal politics, I was hoping for at least a vain attempt, a bit of sport. Come on Samir, I’ve got loads of verbal politics. They used to say at home I never know when to shut up. Right of coarse. But it doesn’t stop me from carrying on.
You in turn remind me of an amusing exchange with a feminist on twitter.
I pointed out that one third of domestic violence victims are men.
She got quite enraged, and shrilly pointed out that while 1 in 4 women are victims of DV, the corresponding levels for men were only “1 in 8”.
So, sorry to disappoint you, but you are free to pretend that
A. Men aren’t a third of the victims of domestic violence, or account for most workplace accidents, homelessness or suicides
Or
B. Feminists display absolute contempt for the above, and predominantly focus on portraying women as victims
And as for not liking womens âviolent verbal politicsâ , it isn’t a personal experience or view.
I suggest you ask your female friends aged 30 plus, whether they would prefer a male or female boss.
Go on. You might get surprised.
Ah sport! Well done samir. I salute you.
I’m not that invested in battling stats on this, it’s not a subject I’m that invested in but I’ve started so I will finish.
You still have provided no source for your assertion :
‘The fact that feminists couldnât care less about male victims of domestic violence (about 1/3rd of the total, zero resources or help), or the mostly male victims of workplace accidents, homelessness or suicides, just underlines his point.’
Surely feminists promote women’s issues? Isn’t that the point?
Or the assertion:
Feminists on the other hand?
Always victims, no responsibility, introspection or accountability.
Sounds a very sweeping statement. Or are you just basing everything on your twitter exchanges?
Ask my female friends if they want a male or female boss? What is that a weird social experiment? What answer would I be surprised to get? I don’t mind either way really as long they’re not a nutter. I certainly don’t think you should be in charge of hiring people any time soon though.
I have serious doubts about violence statistics because it does not define actual damage which can go from death to the faintest of bruises and the level much pain inflicted. A pinch can be very painful but leave little evidence.
A woman slapping a man very hard who happens to be heavy weight boxer or a very solid prop forward will do little damage, a light frail man could be knocked to the ground.
This is why I consider more thought should be given to relative size, strength and ability to withstand blows of those involved when considering acts of violence.
Ah sport! Well done samir. I salute you.
I’m not that invested in battling stats on this, it’s not a subject I’m that invested in but I’ve started so I will finish.
You still have provided no source for your assertion :
‘The fact that feminists couldnât care less about male victims of domestic violence (about 1/3rd of the total, zero resources or help), or the mostly male victims of workplace accidents, homelessness or suicides, just underlines his point.’
Surely feminists promote women’s issues? Isn’t that the point?
Or the assertion:
Feminists on the other hand?
Always victims, no responsibility, introspection or accountability.
Sounds a very sweeping statement. Or are you just basing everything on your twitter exchanges?
Ask my female friends if they want a male or female boss? What is that a weird social experiment? What answer would I be surprised to get? I don’t mind either way really as long they’re not a nutter. I certainly don’t think you should be in charge of hiring people any time soon though.
I have serious doubts about violence statistics because it does not define actual damage which can go from death to the faintest of bruises and the level much pain inflicted. A pinch can be very painful but leave little evidence.
A woman slapping a man very hard who happens to be heavy weight boxer or a very solid prop forward will do little damage, a light frail man could be knocked to the ground.
This is why I consider more thought should be given to relative size, strength and ability to withstand blows of those involved when considering acts of violence.
I think we know Samir’s “sources”- a lifetime of repeated rejection. Which is sad, but not a reasonable basis for a philosophy.
You in turn remind me of an amusing exchange with a feminist on twitter.
I pointed out that one third of domestic violence victims are men.
She got quite enraged, and shrilly pointed out that while 1 in 4 women are victims of DV, the corresponding levels for men were only “1 in 8”.
So, sorry to disappoint you, but you are free to pretend that
A. Men aren’t a third of the victims of domestic violence, or account for most workplace accidents, homelessness or suicides
Or
B. Feminists display absolute contempt for the above, and predominantly focus on portraying women as victims
And as for not liking womens âviolent verbal politicsâ , it isn’t a personal experience or view.
I suggest you ask your female friends aged 30 plus, whether they would prefer a male or female boss.
Go on. You might get surprised.
Samir. Every feminism discussion you have a meltdown about feminists destroying everything.
Every thread I go after you, you wimp out.
Sorry to piss on your bonfire AGAIN (sorry I know you don’t like womens ‘violent verbal politics’ was it last time?) but once again. I ask you. Where are your sources for your woman hating tropes?
We talk around each other. Like ships in the night, we steam by these monolithic shapes, vaguely seen, and shout curses at the passing shadows. It’s really rather silly.
Feminism is clearly more than 4 words…but those particular 4 words of William’s capture the worst of it. Heck, they capture the worst of much of what we see everywhere. ‘Infinite Agency / Zero Responsibility’: the current generation which accumulates empty degrees, and 6 figure debt, ignorant & entitled & living in Mom’s basement while waiting for the Loan Forgiveness Fairy to kiss them on their forehead and make it all better (all while shouting Diversity, Inclusivity, and Equity!)
And yes, of course, there is a part of Feminism, particularly in the 1st and 2nd Waves. which insisted, rightfully so, on equal pay for equal work and equal access given equal skills. Who would disagree? But we must also acknowledge that there are other aspects of those 4-Waves which are twisted & poisonous. We can hear those loud & strident voices insisting that there is no difference between men & women (Biologic Essentialism — Oh My!)… that all sex is rape… and marriage a form of chattel servitude, and family a prison. We can see the Activists and Academicians working diligently to make ‘Gender’ performative even as they cancel Women by refusing all definitions, or telling us ‘they’re people with vulvas’.
Tragically, none of those Feminist Ideologies of whatever stripe have succeeded in eliminating violence against women. If anything, we might suspect that the last 50 years of insistence on outcome equality (Where are the female lumberjacks!?)…and the inevitable lowering of quality standards (https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/absolutely-insane-connecticut-law-would-axe-fitness-requirements-for-female-firefighters/) to achieve outcome equality has incited at least some of it.
But no, male violence against women does not equal male entitlement. Male violence is only violence. And men are significantly more violent (not because they feel a sense of entitlement but because they can be violent and are naturally aggressive). Looking at the murders committed in ’21…87% were committed by men…and 78% of the victims were also men. (a different and more dangerous kind of biologic essentialism).
I’ve got no sympathy with those women because they pick up anything in trousers,that’s got a p***s,of course rather than suffer the still real stigma of being a man- less spinster. They usually live in neighbourhoods where that weird isolated,lonely woman who no one talks to is thought to be a witch and they encourage their children to throw stones at her,and the fact she HASNT GOT A MAN is perceived as sinister and disturbing. Bunch of fat,drunken,tattooed slatterns.
3k is a tiny number compared to the number of cohabiting heterosexual couples . Who would have guessed men were so gentle and forbearing ?
Male violence against women could be anything. If a woman is killing a man’s child and he pushes her away, that is male violence towards the woman. Is it entitlement?
However tragic it may be that 3k women die of domestic violence every year, it is statistically tiny.
The fact that such idiotic comment gets ‘6’ upticks here is pretty depressing.
And yet the most violent of relationships isn’t male/female nor even male/male but female/female; that’s right, lesbians have the worst record for domestic violence. It’s because you’ve paired together 2 of the same sex where most likely both are feminists which means as a woman they are never wrong but teh problem is that their partner is also a woman and so they can’t both be never wrong. In a Male/Female relationship the majority of men put up with this b/c men can’t hit a woman without consequences but 2 women certainly can go at each other.
Your experience is just that “Your” experience and not necessarily reflective of most of what happens or is.
I resent the implication all men batter their wives, demonstrably false.
Male violence against women.
They really ought to pass a law against that.
I mean, men shouldn’t be entitled to do that, should they?
We are a country of 330 millionâŠabout half of those are men. Not excusing it but it isnât common place in everyday life here.
The fact that feminists couldn’t care less about male victims of domestic violence (about 1/3rd of the total, zero resources or help), or the mostly male victims of workplace accidents, homelessness or suicides, just underlines his point.
Plenty of men officially (as police, lawmakers or simply good samaritans) step on to help females.
Feminists on the other hand?
Always victims, no responsibility, introspection or accountability.
We talk around each other. Like ships in the night, we steam by these monolithic shapes, vaguely seen, and shout curses at the passing shadows. It’s really rather silly.
Feminism is clearly more than 4 words…but those particular 4 words of William’s capture the worst of it. Heck, they capture the worst of much of what we see everywhere. ‘Infinite Agency / Zero Responsibility’: the current generation which accumulates empty degrees, and 6 figure debt, ignorant & entitled & living in Mom’s basement while waiting for the Loan Forgiveness Fairy to kiss them on their forehead and make it all better (all while shouting Diversity, Inclusivity, and Equity!)
And yes, of course, there is a part of Feminism, particularly in the 1st and 2nd Waves. which insisted, rightfully so, on equal pay for equal work and equal access given equal skills. Who would disagree? But we must also acknowledge that there are other aspects of those 4-Waves which are twisted & poisonous. We can hear those loud & strident voices insisting that there is no difference between men & women (Biologic Essentialism — Oh My!)… that all sex is rape… and marriage a form of chattel servitude, and family a prison. We can see the Activists and Academicians working diligently to make ‘Gender’ performative even as they cancel Women by refusing all definitions, or telling us ‘they’re people with vulvas’.
Tragically, none of those Feminist Ideologies of whatever stripe have succeeded in eliminating violence against women. If anything, we might suspect that the last 50 years of insistence on outcome equality (Where are the female lumberjacks!?)…and the inevitable lowering of quality standards (https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/absolutely-insane-connecticut-law-would-axe-fitness-requirements-for-female-firefighters/) to achieve outcome equality has incited at least some of it.
But no, male violence against women does not equal male entitlement. Male violence is only violence. And men are significantly more violent (not because they feel a sense of entitlement but because they can be violent and are naturally aggressive). Looking at the murders committed in ’21…87% were committed by men…and 78% of the victims were also men. (a different and more dangerous kind of biologic essentialism).
I’ve got no sympathy with those women because they pick up anything in trousers,that’s got a p***s,of course rather than suffer the still real stigma of being a man- less spinster. They usually live in neighbourhoods where that weird isolated,lonely woman who no one talks to is thought to be a witch and they encourage their children to throw stones at her,and the fact she HASNT GOT A MAN is perceived as sinister and disturbing. Bunch of fat,drunken,tattooed slatterns.
3k is a tiny number compared to the number of cohabiting heterosexual couples . Who would have guessed men were so gentle and forbearing ?
Really? What a bizarre assertion. Why specify only women for this claim, and not men?
Truth and reality might have something to do with that. Not all men have been suckered into going along with the feminist non-sense; the societal cancer it is.
They may be the “truth and reality” for a bunch of whining, misogynist incels crying into their laptops, but they ain’t mine dear.
“Incel” is now as tired as “small pee pee”, “mother’s basement” and all the other insults for people who object to feminism. Do better.
It’s not an insult, it’s a self-description. It’s what these sad people call themselves. You’ll find them easily enough, should you want to, if you type ‘I hate feminists’ into your computer.
I’ve never heard of “small pee pee”- how quaint. Do you mean small d**k?
It’s not an insult, it’s a self-description. It’s what these sad people call themselves. You’ll find them easily enough, should you want to, if you type ‘I hate feminists’ into your computer.
I’ve never heard of “small pee pee”- how quaint. Do you mean small d**k?
“Incel” is now as tired as “small pee pee”, “mother’s basement” and all the other insults for people who object to feminism. Do better.
They may be the “truth and reality” for a bunch of whining, misogynist incels crying into their laptops, but they ain’t mine dear.
Which claim are you referring to?
The claim that feminism is “infinite agency, zero responsibility”.
I did not specify women anywhere in that assertion. I specified an ideology, not a demographic as such.
To which the answer (regarding “evidence”) is: John (are you really a John, I wonder?…) where do you live? Under a rock, perhaps?
Why would I not be a ‘John’? Are we already into conspiracy theories, so soon? Are you ‘really an ‘Andre’, I wonder…..?’ How do I know you’re not a robot from the future, sent to destroy humanity? Or, even worse (help!) Andrea, a WOMAN!!!!!
And no, I don’t live under a rock, thanks for asking- I live in the normal world, with a wife, a couple of jobs and a family, with normal friends of both sexes; rather than the wierd, online Men’s Victimhood Society that most of the commenters here seem to spend an unhealthy amount of time in.
You should try it, Andre. It’s not nearly as scary as some people here think it is. You might even get laid, if you’re lucky….
No conspiracy theories, on my side at least. Just the infantile habit of posting as a man when you’re a woman, quite common these days. As for the ad hominem disparaging, it only lets everyone realize how mature you are… Anyways, enough of attention to you.
Oh my God, it turns out I’m a woman! Thanks for telling me, Andre, or Andrea, or whatever you are.
By the way, look up the meaning of ‘ad hominem’- it doesn’t mean what the standard dumb internet usage thinks it is.
Oh my God, it turns out I’m a woman! Thanks for telling me, Andre, or Andrea, or whatever you are.
By the way, look up the meaning of ‘ad hominem’- it doesn’t mean what the standard dumb internet usage thinks it is.
No conspiracy theories, on my side at least. Just the infantile habit of posting as a man when you’re a woman, quite common these days. As for the ad hominem disparaging, it only lets everyone realize how mature you are… Anyways, enough of attention to you.
Why would I not be a ‘John’? Are we already into conspiracy theories, so soon? Are you ‘really an ‘Andre’, I wonder…..?’ How do I know you’re not a robot from the future, sent to destroy humanity? Or, even worse (help!) Andrea, a WOMAN!!!!!
And no, I don’t live under a rock, thanks for asking- I live in the normal world, with a wife, a couple of jobs and a family, with normal friends of both sexes; rather than the wierd, online Men’s Victimhood Society that most of the commenters here seem to spend an unhealthy amount of time in.
You should try it, Andre. It’s not nearly as scary as some people here think it is. You might even get laid, if you’re lucky….
I did not specify women anywhere in that assertion. I specified an ideology, not a demographic as such.
To which the answer (regarding “evidence”) is: John (are you really a John, I wonder?…) where do you live? Under a rock, perhaps?
The claim that feminism is “infinite agency, zero responsibility”.
Truth and reality might have something to do with that. Not all men have been suckered into going along with the feminist non-sense; the societal cancer it is.
Which claim are you referring to?
As a movement, ‘feminism’ is dead – it lost the plot a while back…
Accountability is kryptonite to women.
Aren’t women horrible, Will? Absolutely awful.
If only us men could live together without them, just us strong, naked, lithe chaps, muscles all glistening in the purifying sunlight, limbs glistening like sweaty bronze….. far, far from `Mummy and her suffocating, emasculating embrace…
Aren’t women horrible, Will? Absolutely awful.
If only us men could live together without them, just us strong, naked, lithe chaps, muscles all glistening in the purifying sunlight, limbs glistening like sweaty bronze….. far, far from `Mummy and her suffocating, emasculating embrace…
Gee. My feminism entailed helping women in fear for their lives after years of beating escape from their abusers w/o abandoning their children, or helping women just brutally raped. Around 3k women each year in the US are murdered by their male partners–the handful of males murdered by female partners typically have a bunch of felony batteries and TROs in their wake.
Male violence against women=male entitlement in four words.
Really? What a bizarre assertion. Why specify only women for this claim, and not men?
As a movement, ‘feminism’ is dead – it lost the plot a while back…
Accountability is kryptonite to women.
Feminism in four words.
Infinite agency.
Zero responsibility.
The way I see this is, any ideology that centres itself around selfishness will be unwilling to pass the baton on (why be selfness for the next generation if your point is about being selfish), and eventually starve itself out unable to continue. Or reading it backwards, any ideology or society that’s dying out because it can’t have continuity may have been doing so because they adopted a selfish ideology some time back.
Judging by birthrates, Western society (esp Europe) is quite literally dying out. This may be because of a selfish ideology adopted a while back.
Modern Western culture is an “ideology that centres itself around selfishness”–would you call any movement that asks for rights not to be battered and raped w/ impunity “selfish?” Was the Civil Rights Movement “selfish?”
“raped w/ impunity” – I hope you’re not referring to marriage with that.
I would have in mind things like drug use, lack of commitment to raising children or family, lack of interest in creating a community / knowing your neighbours, lack of respect for hard work or on its inverse being focused solely on financial success at the expense of others – that kind of thing. None of these are unique to Western societies of course, but a liberal system based on “experiments on living” obviously won’t be there to tell you not to do these things.
Sorry, but your comment has to be called out as being utterly obnoxious and infantile.
What exactly was “obnoxious” about it?
Standard Culdy Sack comment sadly.
“Infantile.” Now THERE’S good word for characterizing something a woman says. I notice Suburbia’s comment was something more than name-calling, unlike your reply.
What exactly was “obnoxious” about it?
Standard Culdy Sack comment sadly.
“Infantile.” Now THERE’S good word for characterizing something a woman says. I notice Suburbia’s comment was something more than name-calling, unlike your reply.
The right not to be battered and raped already exists. It’s why people proven to have violated those rights go to jail.
Occasionally, yes. Not very often.
The Met Police officer Carrick has finally been arrested after raping at least 12 women over a period of 20 years, despite a number of accusations against him, during which he was promoted several times. “Nasty” was his Met nickname, apparently.
The rights exist otherwise the laws would not be in place.
Yes. I realise that. And I have a right not to be burgled, but whether the police are inclined to investigate a burglery, to bring a case to court, or the courts to prosecute it, is an entirely different issue.
Yes. I realise that. And I have a right not to be burgled, but whether the police are inclined to investigate a burglery, to bring a case to court, or the courts to prosecute it, is an entirely different issue.
The rights exist otherwise the laws would not be in place.
I think one of the sticking points on your comment is “proven.” That’s a high bar to cross when police won’t even test a rape kit or listen to a woman’s complaints to begin with.
I guess the police have more IMPORTANT things to do than listen to a woman’s “infantile” complaints, regardless of how “shrilly” they are lodged.
Did I miss any of the dog-whistles used for women in this comments thread?
“Accountability is kryptonite to women.”
“Zero responsibility.”
“…the obsession with patriarchy is overdone.”
Occasionally, yes. Not very often.
The Met Police officer Carrick has finally been arrested after raping at least 12 women over a period of 20 years, despite a number of accusations against him, during which he was promoted several times. “Nasty” was his Met nickname, apparently.
I think one of the sticking points on your comment is “proven.” That’s a high bar to cross when police won’t even test a rape kit or listen to a woman’s complaints to begin with.
I guess the police have more IMPORTANT things to do than listen to a woman’s “infantile” complaints, regardless of how “shrilly” they are lodged.
Did I miss any of the dog-whistles used for women in this comments thread?
“Accountability is kryptonite to women.”
“Zero responsibility.”
“…the obsession with patriarchy is overdone.”
“raped w/ impunity” – I hope you’re not referring to marriage with that.
I would have in mind things like drug use, lack of commitment to raising children or family, lack of interest in creating a community / knowing your neighbours, lack of respect for hard work or on its inverse being focused solely on financial success at the expense of others – that kind of thing. None of these are unique to Western societies of course, but a liberal system based on “experiments on living” obviously won’t be there to tell you not to do these things.
Sorry, but your comment has to be called out as being utterly obnoxious and infantile.
The right not to be battered and raped already exists. It’s why people proven to have violated those rights go to jail.
Modern Western culture is an “ideology that centres itself around selfishness”–would you call any movement that asks for rights not to be battered and raped w/ impunity “selfish?” Was the Civil Rights Movement “selfish?”
The way I see this is, any ideology that centres itself around selfishness will be unwilling to pass the baton on (why be selfness for the next generation if your point is about being selfish), and eventually starve itself out unable to continue. Or reading it backwards, any ideology or society that’s dying out because it can’t have continuity may have been doing so because they adopted a selfish ideology some time back.
Judging by birthrates, Western society (esp Europe) is quite literally dying out. This may be because of a selfish ideology adopted a while back.
“Hi Mom, what say you completely rearrange your life to be a free, on-demand babysitter for my kids? What? You won’t?!”
That was my reaction too (Gen X not a Boomer)
This was my reaction as well, and that’s from a Gen Z baby. Who would want to be unable to say no to any childcare demands, no matter how last minute or unreasonable, on pain of jeopardising your housing arrangement?
Funny – I know plenty of people who do that for their families but they’re not white English people.
Yes, it seems that this selfish, narcissistic way of life has captured the Anglosphere, in particular. Affluence can be a curse, for sure. Family is still #1 in many other cultures, to their credit and to the Anglosphere’s peril.
It’s possible you have a point, but I’m not sure what it is. Is it that, because those people you know do it, “white English” people should also do it? If so, your logic escapes me.
It’s more a remark than a point really. You made a comment I understood to say what’s described in the article wasn’t necessarily a reasonable ask – which was heavily agreed with/voted by people. Seeing this I remarked this seems to be a white English thing as in my circle it’s fairly common practice.
Fair enough. I appreciate your measured reply, and I apologise for misjudging your previous one.
Fair enough. I appreciate your measured reply, and I apologise for misjudging your previous one.
It’s more a remark than a point really. You made a comment I understood to say what’s described in the article wasn’t necessarily a reasonable ask – which was heavily agreed with/voted by people. Seeing this I remarked this seems to be a white English thing as in my circle it’s fairly common practice.
And I know quite a few who are white English people.
Yes, it seems that this selfish, narcissistic way of life has captured the Anglosphere, in particular. Affluence can be a curse, for sure. Family is still #1 in many other cultures, to their credit and to the Anglosphere’s peril.
It’s possible you have a point, but I’m not sure what it is. Is it that, because those people you know do it, “white English” people should also do it? If so, your logic escapes me.
And I know quite a few who are white English people.
On the other hand we were expected to routinely drag two toddlers across an entire continent for week long stays with family during which neither set of grandparents offered to babysit even for an hour. There is no doubt this issue breeds resentment. I certainly resented it.
I can understand your resentment. It will often arise if you accede to other people’s unreasonable expectations. But, as my old dad used to say: “You have a choice: do it, or moan about it; but don’t do it and moan about it.”
I can understand your resentment. It will often arise if you accede to other people’s unreasonable expectations. But, as my old dad used to say: “You have a choice: do it, or moan about it; but don’t do it and moan about it.”
I love babies so would be happy to assist in rearing my descendants and being an influence in their lives. Many of todayâs children donât know basic fairy tales or nursery songs or games, I would love to pass down that cultural heritage.
I genuinely applaud your willingness to pitch in. That being the case, you should look for ways to make it easier for you to do so. It just struck me as massively entitled for someone to think it reasonable to ask someone else, even a parent, to move house because it would make their own life easier.
The thing is that families are a bulwark and provide stability and cohesion. You donât have to give up your own enjoyments and goals to help out. By no means should you be a doormat but why wouldnât you want to spend a good amount of time with the people who you love the most?
I agree with you where family is concerned, but the devil is in the details: from my perspective, the expectation that the mother would determine how much time her mother spends with the grandchild, not the grandmother herself, is implicit in the request that the grandmother make such a major change to her own life.
You ask, “why wouldnât you want to spend a good amount of time with the people who you love the most?”, but we all have our own idea of what constitutes a “good amount of time”.
I agree with you where family is concerned, but the devil is in the details: from my perspective, the expectation that the mother would determine how much time her mother spends with the grandchild, not the grandmother herself, is implicit in the request that the grandmother make such a major change to her own life.
You ask, “why wouldnât you want to spend a good amount of time with the people who you love the most?”, but we all have our own idea of what constitutes a “good amount of time”.
The thing is that families are a bulwark and provide stability and cohesion. You donât have to give up your own enjoyments and goals to help out. By no means should you be a doormat but why wouldnât you want to spend a good amount of time with the people who you love the most?
I genuinely applaud your willingness to pitch in. That being the case, you should look for ways to make it easier for you to do so. It just struck me as massively entitled for someone to think it reasonable to ask someone else, even a parent, to move house because it would make their own life easier.
That was my reaction too (Gen X not a Boomer)
This was my reaction as well, and that’s from a Gen Z baby. Who would want to be unable to say no to any childcare demands, no matter how last minute or unreasonable, on pain of jeopardising your housing arrangement?
Funny – I know plenty of people who do that for their families but they’re not white English people.
On the other hand we were expected to routinely drag two toddlers across an entire continent for week long stays with family during which neither set of grandparents offered to babysit even for an hour. There is no doubt this issue breeds resentment. I certainly resented it.
I love babies so would be happy to assist in rearing my descendants and being an influence in their lives. Many of todayâs children donât know basic fairy tales or nursery songs or games, I would love to pass down that cultural heritage.
“Hi Mom, what say you completely rearrange your life to be a free, on-demand babysitter for my kids? What? You won’t?!”
I feel the obsession with ‘patriarchy’ is overdone. The belief has become an unchallenged cult, blamed for everything.
It is hardly surprising that with women having and caring for babies and children, and men being more suited to a physical protection role that they had different spheres of control.
Inevitably most men don’t want to be told when or how to risk their lives by a woman who is not going to fight but instead want to make such decisions with their comrades who they will fight with. This then leads to male control of war and the pre war state, which ultimately covers a lot of areas. Not the household though where the woman has traditionally been in charge in most cultures.
Now that war is being taken away from the individual (militarily, culturally and legally) it is reasonable for woman to want more control over their life. However this is leaving men with a reduced and uncertain role and is making our society less able to withstand violent threats when they arrive. And they will and are.
At some point we will regret the loss of the maleness that we used to have. Probably in the next decade.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the arrival of nuclear weapons and really the detente in the Cold War, and the start sexual revolution/women’s emancipation follow each other. In all likelihood, the patriarchy narrative was made possible basically because of nuclear weapons.
To add to the above, nuclear weapons may not be able to keep us in peace indefinitely. Some day, some nation may be able find an asymmetric weapon, or find means to hack into others’ weapon systems. That’s where today’s danger lies for me.
Men no longer preoccupied by war can divert their energies to protecting the family identity of female and male from the ravaging war being waged against the family unit by ideology cults who have invaded our establishment our schools hospitals prisons etc? (Aka Tavistock and mermaids) Maybe our warrior men are not superfluous but can help defend womanhood and womens safe spaces?
Women have been fighting for themselves for decades at the expense of men. Itâs time men woke up and fought for themselves. No more sacrifices for a section of humanity that hates us.
Oh dear- was Mummy mean to you?
Your contribution to this thread seems to be ad hominem disparaging remarks directed at anyone with whom you disagree.
You don’t think perhaps that the accusation of “ad hominems” (which is misplaced, as you seem to follow the standard misunderstanding of the term as meaning ‘personal insult’, which it doesn’t), when applied to a thread largely consisting of a bunch of angry men getting increasingly bilious about women who don’t behave as they think they should, is just a little ironic? You just whined that most women “hate you”, for God’s sake. That’s not exactly Socratic in its dispassionate intellectualism, is it? What do you want, a bowl of ice cream and a hanky?
If you don’t like “ad hominem” (sic) disparaging remarks directed at anyone with whom you disagree (ie, the great majority of women), you must strongly dislike most of the stuff here.
I was fully enjoying it. You Americans don’t understand British humour at all do you? There’s little left when all hope of rationality has abandoned ship to crazy American feminist rants.
You don’t think perhaps that the accusation of “ad hominems” (which is misplaced, as you seem to follow the standard misunderstanding of the term as meaning ‘personal insult’, which it doesn’t), when applied to a thread largely consisting of a bunch of angry men getting increasingly bilious about women who don’t behave as they think they should, is just a little ironic? You just whined that most women “hate you”, for God’s sake. That’s not exactly Socratic in its dispassionate intellectualism, is it? What do you want, a bowl of ice cream and a hanky?
If you don’t like “ad hominem” (sic) disparaging remarks directed at anyone with whom you disagree (ie, the great majority of women), you must strongly dislike most of the stuff here.
I was fully enjoying it. You Americans don’t understand British humour at all do you? There’s little left when all hope of rationality has abandoned ship to crazy American feminist rants.
This not a nice comment. Totally unnecessary.
Whereas a comment by a man whining that women are hateful and men need to “fight” back is both “nice” and “necessary”
Good grief.
Whereas a comment by a man whining that women are hateful and men need to “fight” back is both “nice” and “necessary”
Good grief.
John, the downvotes should be enough for you to realize just how much your opinion is appreciated over here. Do yourself a favour and go join some feminist march somewhere, please? People are trying to discuss as adults here, and you are sticking out like a sore thumb.
Andre, dear, the reason this blog is called ‘unHerd’ is precisely because it supposedly prides itself on NOT being a repository for the kind of braying “herd” mentality that infests the internet these days.
Sadly, you represent exactly this braying herd mentality, the sort of group-think clone who cannot cope with a different viewpoint, and merely wants to sit in some half-witted echo-chamber of your own ‘thoughts’ , unchallenged by anything or anyone. In which case, why not just sit in a darkened room and talk to yourself? You’ll be guaranteed not to be upset by a differring opinion.
Andre, dear, the reason this blog is called ‘unHerd’ is precisely because it supposedly prides itself on NOT being a repository for the kind of braying “herd” mentality that infests the internet these days.
Sadly, you represent exactly this braying herd mentality, the sort of group-think clone who cannot cope with a different viewpoint, and merely wants to sit in some half-witted echo-chamber of your own ‘thoughts’ , unchallenged by anything or anyone. In which case, why not just sit in a darkened room and talk to yourself? You’ll be guaranteed not to be upset by a differring opinion.
Your contribution to this thread seems to be ad hominem disparaging remarks directed at anyone with whom you disagree.
This not a nice comment. Totally unnecessary.
John, the downvotes should be enough for you to realize just how much your opinion is appreciated over here. Do yourself a favour and go join some feminist march somewhere, please? People are trying to discuss as adults here, and you are sticking out like a sore thumb.
Oh dear- was Mummy mean to you?
Problem is, when you have spent decades pathologising males and their agency, you might not get the response you wish for when you appeal for their aid.
Feminism helped create a world where men are at a loss as to what they are supposed to be and where male activity is constantly subject to outside approval. The same kind of men who will be aware of the trans issue are the same kind of men who would be horrified of being called a sexist, and as such, are equally horrified of being called a transphobe. Men know that they will be condemned whatever they do.
Ironically the men who hold the most traditional views on gender are the working-class types feminists would never dream of associating with and who couldn’t care less what feminists think.
Most men are doing ok- they have jobs, families, friends, they watch sport, go to the pub, secretly look at a bit of porn, do the gardening and even change nappies. They aren’t “condemned” by anyone for doing these things.
They don’t tend to spend their time crying to everyone about their victimhood and how they suffer under such a cruel dystopian nightmare. Maybe you should give it a try.
I was obviously referring to men’s role in society. Men are seen as optional, at best. Greater minds than yours are concerned, female and male.
Men clearly aren’t seen as “optional” by anyone other than a few fringe figures who can be safely ignored by any sane person.
You might think they are “great minds”, but 99% of normal humans think they just need to get laid and find a hobby.
Men clearly aren’t seen as “optional” by anyone other than a few fringe figures who can be safely ignored by any sane person.
You might think they are “great minds”, but 99% of normal humans think they just need to get laid and find a hobby.
I was obviously referring to men’s role in society. Men are seen as optional, at best. Greater minds than yours are concerned, female and male.
My only problem with this line of thinking is it portrays men as helpless victims of the unreasonable demands of women. I personally find that cringe worthy. Men find great comfort in strong established roles and are very hierarchical. The womenâs movement smashed that up. We have been called to reimagine what bravery, commitment and sacrifice look like. Instead of relying on mum to affirm our manhood. We all know what manhood looks like, especially women. Itâs time to take our hands off it and get on with it without constantly looking for female approval.
Most men are doing ok- they have jobs, families, friends, they watch sport, go to the pub, secretly look at a bit of porn, do the gardening and even change nappies. They aren’t “condemned” by anyone for doing these things.
They don’t tend to spend their time crying to everyone about their victimhood and how they suffer under such a cruel dystopian nightmare. Maybe you should give it a try.
My only problem with this line of thinking is it portrays men as helpless victims of the unreasonable demands of women. I personally find that cringe worthy. Men find great comfort in strong established roles and are very hierarchical. The womenâs movement smashed that up. We have been called to reimagine what bravery, commitment and sacrifice look like. Instead of relying on mum to affirm our manhood. We all know what manhood looks like, especially women. Itâs time to take our hands off it and get on with it without constantly looking for female approval.
I am trying, as, it seems, are quite a few men. Just don’t understand why some men and lots of women seem to support the transcultists.
It is damaging to both sexes/genders and all of society.
In effect we are now at war, just one where guns are not being used. Yet.
The trans agenda dovetails into a lot of the things that helped feminism succeed
1) assertion that a group is oppressed or vulnerable (then women, now trans)
2) a desire for people to be seen as tolerant and inclusive towards this group
3) an opponent group who are seen as discriminatory and cruel to the group (feminism would have painted this figure as an archetype of sexism and male chauvinism, the trans equivalent is what they call a TERF)
4) an environment of liberalism which makes people subconsciously believe freedom is the ultimate end and that the more freedom there is the better.
The trans have two more things going for them
A) for young men who are fed up of the way they feel they are treated by society, they can instantly become part of a progressive “in-group” by becoming trans. Going from male to trans woman means going from the very bottom of the progressive stack right to the very top. Once in the crosshairs of the Left, they are now aiming the gun.
B) a lot of young men will seek to “get back” at women by presenting as one
C) there is a potentially huge social dividend to being trans and young. Trans people can make a LOT of money as social media figures in a way men simply cannot. There is a boy at a local school being “transitioned” by 5 girls. He has instantly boosted his social circle. Being trans is a popular thing amongst the young.
Most ‘trans’ people are now girls wanting to become boys- more than two-thirds. This does rather contradict your simple theories.
Depends what numbers you look at. The main concern is male to female transition. Then again, you don’t seem to be able to really do much in the comments section other than be obtuse and insult people.
It’s a fact, in the UK at least- if you have figures that dispute it, please say.
And why is the “main concern” male to female transition? Whose “main concern”, and why? Perhaps you mean YOUR main concern- in which case, why is the one so much more of a “concern” to you than the other?
And yes, many of my comments today have been a bit, er, tetchy- that’s because the comments I’m responding to have been pretty unpleasant misogynist ranting. If someone posts that stuff, they should surely be ‘man enough’ to take it on the chin, no? Or should we blame their Mothers?
Where are your figures from?
The main concern is male-to-female transitioners because these individuals are biological men who are seeking access to women’s spaces. You would know that if you were so knowledgable about the trans issue. Various feminists have written on Unherd about it. You can pollute the comments on those articles too.
“Misogynistic ranting”. Lol. Get a grip. I think you got bullied a lot at school.
“Where do you get you figures from?” There is no strict authority, but the great majority of studies put the current number at around 2/3rds female to male- see Meier and Lebusky , ‘The demographics of transgender population’.
“Various feminists have written…” I thought you hated feminists, and blamed them for most of the world’s ills? Why are you now telling me I should read these hateful, man-hating harridans? Make your mind up.
“I think you got bullied a lot at school”. Ah. Very good argument. I’ve tried to think of an intellectual counter to that epistemological theory, but I just can’t. Top marks.
“Where do you get you figures from?” There is no strict authority, but the great majority of studies put the current number at around 2/3rds female to male- see Meier and Lebusky , ‘The demographics of transgender population’.
“Various feminists have written…” I thought you hated feminists, and blamed them for most of the world’s ills? Why are you now telling me I should read these hateful, man-hating harridans? Make your mind up.
“I think you got bullied a lot at school”. Ah. Very good argument. I’ve tried to think of an intellectual counter to that epistemological theory, but I just can’t. Top marks.
Where are your figures from?
The main concern is male-to-female transitioners because these individuals are biological men who are seeking access to women’s spaces. You would know that if you were so knowledgable about the trans issue. Various feminists have written on Unherd about it. You can pollute the comments on those articles too.
“Misogynistic ranting”. Lol. Get a grip. I think you got bullied a lot at school.
It’s a fact, in the UK at least- if you have figures that dispute it, please say.
And why is the “main concern” male to female transition? Whose “main concern”, and why? Perhaps you mean YOUR main concern- in which case, why is the one so much more of a “concern” to you than the other?
And yes, many of my comments today have been a bit, er, tetchy- that’s because the comments I’m responding to have been pretty unpleasant misogynist ranting. If someone posts that stuff, they should surely be ‘man enough’ to take it on the chin, no? Or should we blame their Mothers?
Depends what numbers you look at. The main concern is male to female transition. Then again, you don’t seem to be able to really do much in the comments section other than be obtuse and insult people.
Most ‘trans’ people are now girls wanting to become boys- more than two-thirds. This does rather contradict your simple theories.
The trans agenda dovetails into a lot of the things that helped feminism succeed
1) assertion that a group is oppressed or vulnerable (then women, now trans)
2) a desire for people to be seen as tolerant and inclusive towards this group
3) an opponent group who are seen as discriminatory and cruel to the group (feminism would have painted this figure as an archetype of sexism and male chauvinism, the trans equivalent is what they call a TERF)
4) an environment of liberalism which makes people subconsciously believe freedom is the ultimate end and that the more freedom there is the better.
The trans have two more things going for them
A) for young men who are fed up of the way they feel they are treated by society, they can instantly become part of a progressive “in-group” by becoming trans. Going from male to trans woman means going from the very bottom of the progressive stack right to the very top. Once in the crosshairs of the Left, they are now aiming the gun.
B) a lot of young men will seek to “get back” at women by presenting as one
C) there is a potentially huge social dividend to being trans and young. Trans people can make a LOT of money as social media figures in a way men simply cannot. There is a boy at a local school being “transitioned” by 5 girls. He has instantly boosted his social circle. Being trans is a popular thing amongst the young.
Yes Samantha I think I agree with that. Whenever I see us bemoan the loss of traditional roles I think it is mostly a loss of imagination. Are we saying that we no longer need men to be brave? Do we no longer need men to be protective? Do we no longer need men to be father to children? My God, there is a world of work to do as you pointed out. The traditional roles for men and women do not become superfluous. They just need to be reimagined.
Well said.
Well said.
Women have been fighting for themselves for decades at the expense of men. Itâs time men woke up and fought for themselves. No more sacrifices for a section of humanity that hates us.
Problem is, when you have spent decades pathologising males and their agency, you might not get the response you wish for when you appeal for their aid.
Feminism helped create a world where men are at a loss as to what they are supposed to be and where male activity is constantly subject to outside approval. The same kind of men who will be aware of the trans issue are the same kind of men who would be horrified of being called a sexist, and as such, are equally horrified of being called a transphobe. Men know that they will be condemned whatever they do.
Ironically the men who hold the most traditional views on gender are the working-class types feminists would never dream of associating with and who couldn’t care less what feminists think.
I am trying, as, it seems, are quite a few men. Just don’t understand why some men and lots of women seem to support the transcultists.
It is damaging to both sexes/genders and all of society.
In effect we are now at war, just one where guns are not being used. Yet.
Yes Samantha I think I agree with that. Whenever I see us bemoan the loss of traditional roles I think it is mostly a loss of imagination. Are we saying that we no longer need men to be brave? Do we no longer need men to be protective? Do we no longer need men to be father to children? My God, there is a world of work to do as you pointed out. The traditional roles for men and women do not become superfluous. They just need to be reimagined.
Many of these grandparents have done their duty, raised the next generation and now want a break from both work and small children and expect the next generation to do their bit now, as they did. Not everyone wants their last years on earth surrounded by horrible little brats running and screaming around, for which they no longer have the energy of youth to tolerate. Especially as the current generation of parents – and our current legal system – forbids giving such brats the corporal punishment – the belt, the ruler to the knuckles that all children were familiar with 50 years ago – they deserve that we used to have. Back when we were (quite properly) expected to be seen and not heard and feared the wroth of adults if we dared to intrude on their adult world with our insufferable childishness.
That other cultures that contributed a mere iota of what the English have think differently strikes me as a moot point.
Men no longer preoccupied by war can divert their energies to protecting the family identity of female and male from the ravaging war being waged against the family unit by ideology cults who have invaded our establishment our schools hospitals prisons etc? (Aka Tavistock and mermaids) Maybe our warrior men are not superfluous but can help defend womanhood and womens safe spaces?
Many of these grandparents have done their duty, raised the next generation and now want a break from both work and small children and expect the next generation to do their bit now, as they did. Not everyone wants their last years on earth surrounded by horrible little brats running and screaming around, for which they no longer have the energy of youth to tolerate. Especially as the current generation of parents – and our current legal system – forbids giving such brats the corporal punishment – the belt, the ruler to the knuckles that all children were familiar with 50 years ago – they deserve that we used to have. Back when we were (quite properly) expected to be seen and not heard and feared the wroth of adults if we dared to intrude on their adult world with our insufferable childishness.
That other cultures that contributed a mere iota of what the English have think differently strikes me as a moot point.
Well Ukrainian men have been expected to be very traditional whether they like it or not. I am always surprised at how many of them are middle aged in the combat footage. I would have been all over being a warrior when I was 19 – not so much in my middle age.
No feminists in house fires, the Titanic or trenches on the Ukrainian battlefield
Plenty in HM Submarines unfortunately.
Three women submariners as fas as I know.
Which may be your definition of “plenty”, but it’s a lot less than the number of women “victims” who have murdered their partners.
Edit: 2016. Could be modestly higher now, I guess.
I agree.
However there has been quite a bit of âbovver â in HM Submarines in recent years despite the MoD doing its very best to suppress any mention of it.
Courts Martial have been the result and one tabloid has highlighted the scandal, rather amusingly as âUP PERISCOPE â!
Oh, to be in a long hard vessel full of seamen, Samir….
I agree.
However there has been quite a bit of âbovver â in HM Submarines in recent years despite the MoD doing its very best to suppress any mention of it.
Courts Martial have been the result and one tabloid has highlighted the scandal, rather amusingly as âUP PERISCOPE â!
Oh, to be in a long hard vessel full of seamen, Samir….
Three women submariners as fas as I know.
Which may be your definition of “plenty”, but it’s a lot less than the number of women “victims” who have murdered their partners.
Edit: 2016. Could be modestly higher now, I guess.
ps. (Useless information.)
You serve IN a Royal Navy vessel not ON.
The only two exceptions used to be H.M.S.Aisne and H.M.S. Opportune. Both now scrapped.
What you also do ON a navy vessel is to watch out for other ships. Not a hard task, given the extent of navigation aids and radars.
Which is something that the crew of the USN Fitzgerald and KNM Helge Ingstad failed to do, quite miserably, under benign conditions.
Guess what was the common link?
In other news, the royal navy is trying to double the number of women (overall, not those in submarines and stuff) from 1 in 10 currently. Should be good. Strangely, no such initiative for increasing male teachers in schools though.
What you also do ON a navy vessel is to watch out for other ships. Not a hard task, given the extent of navigation aids and radars.
Which is something that the crew of the USN Fitzgerald and KNM Helge Ingstad failed to do, quite miserably, under benign conditions.
Guess what was the common link?
In other news, the royal navy is trying to double the number of women (overall, not those in submarines and stuff) from 1 in 10 currently. Should be good. Strangely, no such initiative for increasing male teachers in schools though.
Plenty in HM Submarines unfortunately.
ps. (Useless information.)
You serve IN a Royal Navy vessel not ON.
The only two exceptions used to be H.M.S.Aisne and H.M.S. Opportune. Both now scrapped.
No feminists in house fires, the Titanic or trenches on the Ukrainian battlefield
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the arrival of nuclear weapons and really the detente in the Cold War, and the start sexual revolution/women’s emancipation follow each other. In all likelihood, the patriarchy narrative was made possible basically because of nuclear weapons.
To add to the above, nuclear weapons may not be able to keep us in peace indefinitely. Some day, some nation may be able find an asymmetric weapon, or find means to hack into others’ weapon systems. That’s where today’s danger lies for me.
Well Ukrainian men have been expected to be very traditional whether they like it or not. I am always surprised at how many of them are middle aged in the combat footage. I would have been all over being a warrior when I was 19 – not so much in my middle age.
I feel the obsession with ‘patriarchy’ is overdone. The belief has become an unchallenged cult, blamed for everything.
It is hardly surprising that with women having and caring for babies and children, and men being more suited to a physical protection role that they had different spheres of control.
Inevitably most men don’t want to be told when or how to risk their lives by a woman who is not going to fight but instead want to make such decisions with their comrades who they will fight with. This then leads to male control of war and the pre war state, which ultimately covers a lot of areas. Not the household though where the woman has traditionally been in charge in most cultures.
Now that war is being taken away from the individual (militarily, culturally and legally) it is reasonable for woman to want more control over their life. However this is leaving men with a reduced and uncertain role and is making our society less able to withstand violent threats when they arrive. And they will and are.
At some point we will regret the loss of the maleness that we used to have. Probably in the next decade.
A thought-provoking article, particularly as itâs very relevant to me. I was a radical â80s feminist and Iâm now a grandmother. I have been seriously re-thinking my views around women and men for some years and I have been letting go of the idea I must prove myself in the âoutside worldâ at the same time as being a single mother. Even though I was seriously programmed by feminist ideology, it still feels natural to me to home-make and nurture. My spiritual and practical female wisdom is vital for my family.
A thought-provoking article, particularly as itâs very relevant to me. I was a radical â80s feminist and Iâm now a grandmother. I have been seriously re-thinking my views around women and men for some years and I have been letting go of the idea I must prove myself in the âoutside worldâ at the same time as being a single mother. Even though I was seriously programmed by feminist ideology, it still feels natural to me to home-make and nurture. My spiritual and practical female wisdom is vital for my family.
Yes, dear old Siggi and “what do women want?”
He was wrong, as usual. The question is rather “what do women expect?”
And the answer is that “women expect to be protected,” by men, by mothers, by grandmothers, by government, by first-wave feminists, and Uncle Tom Cobbley.
And yes, when a woman has a baby she needs — expects — a lot of support. That is how to beat the odds on all the things that can go wrong.
I know a mother who says “my job is to keep these kids alive.”
I think she is probably right. But I don’t know if the lasses on Mumsnet would agree.
In a society like Freud’s the question was ‘What do men want from women?’ and so women were shaped accordingly, focussing on sexual attractiveness and marriagability. It was hammered home that this is how they should be by making it impossible to survive without a man’s protection.
To ask what it was a woman wanted was a question she couldn’t answer as she’d been schooled in meekness and obedience and was allowed little agency.
So Freud could find no answer in his time and was utterly puzzled by the woman that patriarchy had created and shaped. That he could not see the blindingly obvious- that women want to be seen as humans first and ‘women’ afterwards, is an indication of deeply ingrained patriarchy was in his time.
Now we ask what do men want? And if the Internet is any indication, they want to be back on top again, where they can dictate the terms then ridicule women for following them.
I